Andre Roch

 

INTERVIEWEE:  ANDRE ROCH

 INTERVIEWER:  GEORGE MADSEN              

 AHS AUDIO TAPE 

 C55 –   February 16, 1967

Dick its certainly difficult to designate a founder of anything.  Because there are so many people usually involved in the birth of an important project.  While certainly that’s true of skiing here in Aspen, and certainly my guest today is the pioneer of Aspen skiing, perhaps you’d call him the father of Alpine skiing in Aspen.  My guest, Andre Roch of Switzerland, who laid out the Roch Run on Aspen Mountain, and for whom the annual Roch Cup competition is named.  Andre you first saw Aspen in 1936, then again in 1948, I imagine the town has changed considerably since then.

When I come here I don’t see so much change in the outside, but there are more houses, more modern houses, nice lodges and so in a way it is nice to see, and what I like is that you don’t see so high houses or such a bad mixture of houses like in some places in Europe, and this makes it nice.  But where I think it has most changes is on the slope that they cut and the possibilities you have to ski on Aspen Mtn, and another thing is the underground life and the night life of Aspen where I think you will find the biggest changes – and I don’t know how it is in other places in the United States but that is what impressed me most.

 

Have you tried the local skiing here, since your visit?

Yes, I was at all the places and I enjoy it very much I think the possibilities that you have of making one way down here and the next one here and the next one here, it is really unique, and just cutting through the trees like they did it is something that we never thought would become so good when we were here before.  When I was back in ‘48 it was already – not to compare with the first time we were here where we had this Aspen skiing and sagebrush skiing and fir tree skiing that was quite rough.  Then now its still much better than in ‘48.

 

You’re 60 years old now, but you haven’t slowed down in skiing a bit.

Oh, yes I have, alright – but I still can ski, for its lots of fun, and I can’t ski the most difficult things, but no more racing like before.

 

Andre when you were here in 1936 you said that the snow in the Rockies was superior to that in your homeland, the Alps – do you still feel that way?

Yes, when you go in the wild country the skiing is difficult, because it is not prepared, its quite wild – in the Alps every forest is trimmed, and you take the trees down that fall, and its quite different, but when it is prepared and when these trails are cut, then the conditions are better because you don’t have so much snow to get stuck, you have this packed trail, it is easy, its always dry, the climate is ideal for good skiing condition, and when I say in Switzerland that I go to the U.S. for skiing they laugh, but they don’t know that here the skiing is better.  You never have ice like there is in the Alps, you know.  The snow is not wetter, but you have a period of warm weather, and then it freezes, and then you have this trail of all ice and you wait for new snow then it becomes better, then it ices again.  And here, they say “where is the ice, where is the ice?”

 

You went to school in Oregon?

Yes, Oregon State College

 

What did you study there?

Engineering, Civil Engineering.

 

And you’re associated with the Swiss Avalanche Control Center in Davos, I believe.

Yes, it is a state institute for the study of snow, study of avalanches, study of all kind of protection, and it gets more and more scientific.  Hail, how the hail is grown in the atmosphere, too.

 

So you’re a weatherman, too?

Not so much, but I am head of the department for the study of the snow, avalanches, and all the protection possibilities – like fences or sheds for highways and things like that – we have to know how strong an avalanche can be to make the construction, protection, strong enough so they won’t be destroyed.

 

Andre in your day you were a well-known ski racer, in fact you represented the first Aspen Ski Club back in ‘37 at a number of meets in this country, didn’t you?

Oh, not much, but we went to Sun Valley for the first Harriman Cup or the second one, and there I met all the students from Switzerland who were invited for this race – of course myself I couldn’t race very fast because skiing here, we never had speed, you know.  We were always in deep snow and in rough country, but well, I raced alright.  And then I bought from this Swiss student all their skis, for the people in Aspen – and then I went to Denver to Thor Groswald’s ski factory and I asked him “now you give me all the skis that you can sell”  and then I bought these skis with the money of the ski club that we just started, for the kids in Aspen.  And maybe thirty people started skiing, but the year after we were off, I think everybody who could walk started to ski.  It was good success, but you know when we were here they were kind of shy to try skiing.  But every Sunday we had ski school, for the kids and so on.  One fellow was studying medicine, and when I came in 48 he was in Sugar Bowl (??) in California, and wrote to me, if you have occasion, come here, and we’ll ski together.  And I was there for 4-5 days and I had a wonderful time with him – he was a boy from Aspen, and I didn’t remember him but he remembered me very nicely.

 

Where did you teach skiing here, on what slope?

Oh, we were on the foot of Buttermilk, or inside Highlands – the foot of Highlands, and then we were on the opposite of Highlands where we had this first race, and our trouble was to find something easy enough that the people would go down you know?  We had a slalom and on every turn they fell, stood up, went to the next slalom – but that was the beginning.

 

Andre you’re really a mountaineer by profession – you’ve been on several expeditions in the Himalayas, haven’t you?

I was five times, yes, but we were in the period just before every high peak was climbed, you know?  But, for our reputation it is not so good because we were not the heroes who climbed them, but for the exploration it was a tremendous time.  We went in, studied a big mountain, tried to find the best way up and so on, and that’s what we did here, too.

 

This was right after WWII?

Oh, it was in ‘34 Father Don Foote (??) was leader of the American expedition to Everest – we climbed the West Ridge, and this was a tremendous accomplishment for the Americans climbers – the West Ridge crossing Everest – that’s the only peak from 27,000 ft that was crossed – the other one was never crossed yet – we had full admiration for that accomplishment.  We were there in 1952, and it was climbed by the British in ’53.

 

How long are you going to be in Aspen?

I suppose I will be here for three weeks – I have some plans to advise the highway dept. and to start an avalanche warning system with Ed Lachapelle (?) in Alta – we are always corresponding and he is the best man for avalanche now in the U.S. – we knew him since I was here in ‘48.  He wants to start a warning system for all the United States, of course its very different – in Washington state you have thirty feet of snow, and here you have four or five feet, but you have avalanches anyway.

 

In ’48, you mentioned before we went on the air, that you were associated  with the Mineral King development in CA.

Yes I was, with Costy(?) Hill – he was the man who accompanied the team (trainer) of the U.S. – we were in Mineral King, and we looked all over and the possibilities, and I think they have more avalanche problems than here in Aspen – in Aspen its nearly nothing, of course avalanches are so funny – I studied the mechanics of the start of them and it is impossible to say its going to come or not – now the way to find out if there is an avalanche danger is to see what comes from the weather that makes the avalanche.  It is lots of snow, or a warming period, or the wind – packed the snow on a protected slope or lee side, and then inside underneath you have layers that are not strong packed.  Here it is the case – you are always ready for avalanches here, but on top of that you need a heavy snowfall, and this is rare – you have only small snowfall.

 

Besides being a mountain man you’re a scientist.

Oh, I am an experimenting scientist – I won’t say I’m a mathematic scientist.

 

You were here in 1936; what was your work with the Highland Bavarian Corporation?

 

The idea was to try to find a place to compete with Sun Valley.  Then we were in this valley from Castle Creek and there it was not so good, and then we skied down Tourtelette Park and down to Aspen several times, and then we thought “here are very good conditions, we can ski there, and if there are people in Aspen we should start that”  But where we found the best country was the Ashcroft country with Hayden, Electric Peak and Castle Peak and all these peaks – for us it was the most like the Alpine country that we found here, and we thought this was tremendous.  Of course its very high, but then, you can – if this is going to be developed – you can stay in underneath the timberline when it is stormy and go higher when it is good weather.  And this is no problem, and it is one of the best I know for the skiing in the world.

 

Have you been down your run, Roch Run?

I was down it three days ago for the first time, and I was quite proud of it.  Not that I thought that I can still ski this difficult thing, but it is impressing, it is very steep, it is something wonderful!  I was admiring myself that we had the idea of cutting this thing – and you know, Frank Willoughby told me then “aw, that’s much too difficult” and I told him “No no, it will make the advertising for Aspen,”  and I think it did.    But that was an awful run at the beginning.  It was narrow, we had to jump the road four times, and so on.

 

You thought that Hayden Peak was the best ski area in this region back in 1936, and you still think so today?

Oh yes, I’m sure.  The first time, it was difficult to get in.  Now I was back there in ’48 and I climbed all these peaks, I went down all these creeks, and so on, and I think – I don’t know but I think – that I am the fellow who knows this whole area the best.  I think its wonderful and the possibilities for difficult skiing, for easy skiing, for everything you can imagine, would be very good.  And on top of that you have this nice climate that is ideal for skiing conditions here in Colorado.

 

And you like that some of the skiing is in the trees and some is above timberline?

Yes, and I think that what is the most attractive part on top of this good skiing is the wonderful scenery that you have.  You have mountains like in the Alps – that you don’t find if you ski down here in Highlands and so on – you don’t have the scenery that you find in the Alps, but there you have it all.

 

So you think the scenery is important too, the bald peaks above the timberline?

Yes, for instance you have this Monument Gulch, small Monument Gulch, then you have towers of rock when you go in.  I don’t know if anybody has seen that, but I skied down with Frank Willoughby and it is – I don’t know – a little bit like the Grand Canyon in this canyon.

 

Can you ski the whole mountain, though?

Oh yes.  You have many runs going down to Castle Creek – all these creeks: Devaney Creek, Sandy Creek, Sawyer Creek, American Lake – and then you ski down to all kinds of different places in Castle Creek and the way it would be to take the skiers back to Ashcroft with a bus that would go all the time.  And this is to compare to the skiing in Davos where from the top of the mountain you have fifteen runs down the mountain and then you have the same thing – fifteen runs all prepared and all the combinations that go with them.

 

And is the vertical descent about the same as in Davos?

It is not quite as much – clear down to Ashcroft it is the same, but down to Castle Creek it is a little less – it is about a 5,000 foot drop.  It is a very good run.

 

Is there any problem of getting between these canyons you speak of – that is, can you ski all the way around the mountain, or is it divided in sections so that you’d just ski one at a time?

No, when you pick up the right start from the top, then you can ski nearly all of them without climbing.  And then it is a good combination, because it will make long runs – maybe very easy runs – that you can ski for, I don’t know, maybe 6 miles or so.

 

Is the best way down from Hayden to Ashcroft?  Or down to the junction of Castle and Conundrum Creeks?

No, going down to Ashcroft you have maybe six different ways.  And then when you go down the other side it amounts to twelve or more, and then you even can go to the other side on Conundrum, but the West side of the mountain is very wind-blown, so this will be later in the Spring or something like that.  That is a lot of fun because from one top you ski all around.

 

What kind of uphill transportation would you envision?

Well, it is difficult to say because we are studying this, and for instance in Europe they take the people to one place up and then they stay there on lifts, and then we will find out – take the people up and maybe they will take the long runs, or maybe stay on other lifts that would be there.  When I am here I will try to make plans for putting in the best thing and not making any mistakes.  Because one thing if a place is started is to be able to bring the skiers back to the beginning of the tramway and not have houses there – this is one of the biggest problems in the Alps – that the places grow, you have more villas, and the skiers cannot come down to the start anymore.  Of course they don’t see that because they were not there before or they have not lived through the whole development.  If we tried to stop something like that we would have to avoid all these mistakes from the start.

 

You mentioned that there’s a possibility on Hayden Peak of wind conditions on the upper open slopes, then you’re lifts would probably not go all the way from the top to the bottom then.

No, I think when it is windy, then we will stay under the tree line.  And then when it is good, we will go on top.  And you are just about the same way when you go to the top here (Aspen Mtn?), and I think you are more protected from the wind in Ashcroft than here in Aspen on top of Aspen Mountain.

 

Do you see a big expansion for skiing around the world?

Oh, yes – especially in Colorado, because the conditions are the best I know.  It’s much better than any place in California or in Oregon, or in Washington.  I don’t know the East, I never skied in the East, but what I hear it is very cold.

 

Switzerland and the Alps in general are pretty well developed as far as lift facilities.

Yes and its still developing – you know every valley gets its thing, and there is an example of Verbier that started from nothing and in ten years maybe it is a place where you get 10,000 guests and very good skiing.  All the places like Davos you get maybe 15,000 guests when it is full.  Here you get, I don’t know, maybe in Aspen you get 5,000?

 

Seven or Eight (thousand guests in Aspen).

Yes, and this is going to be doing much more, I’m sure.  Maybe the only difficulty is the transportation to come to Aspen.

 

Do you think that’s Aspen’s main problem now, transportation?

Maybe – but it’s amazing – I am admiring this Aspen airline, [which] goes five times a day or so, and of course they get stuck sometimes, but in places like Davos – a place with 15,000 guests – they try to have a plane coming in – it was the same problem as here – and they tried one year and you had one plane a day, with I don’t know, ten people that’s all.  And it is to laugh at.  And here, well here it is America and it goes, eh?

 

What do you see for Aspen for the future?  You mentioned that you foresaw marked expansion – can you elaborate on that a little?

Oh, I think its going to [grow].  I think it’s one of the best places.  And when you are here its much closer to the slopes where you ski – in Sun Valley you have to go somewhere, and so on.  And here you have everything there.  And always more and more – with Snowmass and so on.

 

When are you coming back to Aspen?

I don’t know.  I am [unintelligible] in Switzerland and then I have four years to go before I am pensioned, and then after that, if I still can walk and ski, then maybe I’ll come here – because I like it.

 

If you came back you might take another look at Hayden Peak and Ashcroft.

I will – I will do it now any way.

 

But that’s the place for development.

I think so.  We thought so at the beginning, and we still think it much more, when you see how it was adopted here and how it was cut, and all these possibilities, and then we are sure that it will be a unique place in the world for skiing.  Even in the summer.

 

Do you think we’ll ever have our ski slopes here linked up?  That is, go up Aspen Mtn, come down on the Little Annie side, maybe go up Hayden – that sort of thing?

Yes, I think it would be possible.  It’s not so easy, you know, because south slope or west slope, they are – south slope the snow doesn’t stay on.  But I thought going down to Little Annie to Castle Creek was not good, but I saw it from the top there and I think it is possible.  And it would be a good combination with an Ashcroft project, and you have to think of that and I think its coming.

 

Obviously our guest today, Andre Roch, sees a great deal in the future for Aspen, and I’m sure a number of things that he hasn’t even revealed on this program.  Andre, thank you very much for being our guest today and we hope you do come back, if not in four years after your retirement, well, as soon as possible anyway.

Thank you very much.