Video Interview: Joella Bayer

1993.023.0004 Video History of Joella Bayer

Interview with Judith Gertler

August 10, 1993

Judith Gertler [00:00:04] This is a video history interview with Joella Bayer in Aspen, Colorado on August 10th, 1993, and is part of the Aspen Historical Society’s Video History Project. The interviewer is Judith Gertler. Joella, it’s really a pleasure to meet you, and we want to thank you for participating in this project. This will give us the opportunity to learn more about your life, and also about the life of your husband, Herbert Bayer.

Joella Bayer [00:00:36] And Aspen.

Judith Gertler [00:00:37] And certainly more about Aspen. Let’s start with your early life, and then we’ll move on to when you got to Aspen.

Joella Bayer [00:00:47] Well, it’s a little complicated, so I don’t know whether you want the whole thing. You can always cut it out. My parents were English artists. They had a house in Florence, and I was born in the summer near…what is it… Genoa or what?… Lucca, because it was too hot in Florence. And then I stayed in the school there until about 14. And then I traveled with my mother. And then I was in Germany for a year in school, in the dancing school, of all things. And, um, then I went to Paris for three, four years with my mother, who already… she wanted to get away from Florence. It was too narrow. They had separated. They had divorced. So it was…. And then I lived there four years. And then I met an American, and I got married and came over here in ’27. To New York.

Judith Gertler [00:01:55] To New York. Let’s back up just a little bit. When were you born?

Joella Bayer [00:02:00] Uh. July 20th, 1907.

Judith Gertler [00:02:07] And you’ve had an interesting girlhood. Varied. You lived in Europe.

Joella Bayer [00:02:13] Well, there were very interesting English people living in the villas. They owned the villas in Florence, and there were artists. And they had many artists visiting. There weren’t any very big artists except some Italians. I have to think of the name quickly. They weren’t the Surrealists. They were the… Well, can I come back to that? Because I haven’t thought about them in years.

Judith Gertler [00:02:46] Absolutely. I understand that your mother was a poet.

Joella Bayer [00:02:48] Yes. But also, she started as a painter.

Judith Gertler [00:02:52] And what was her name?

Joella Bayer [00:02:54] Her name? Mina Loy.

Judith Gertler [00:02:58] And I heard that you grew up in the intellectual and cultural milieu of Paris once you got there as a teenager. Can you tell us some stories about your time there, and perhaps you can remember anybody that you met there?

Joella Bayer [00:03:13] Well, it was very difficult because my mother was bringing me up old-fashioned. I should marry properly, you see. So some parties, it was of friends, and I was allowed to go. And I met some of her friends, like Joyce and the woman poet, writer.

Judith Gertler [00:03:36] Gertrude Stein?

Joella Bayer [00:03:37] Gertrude Stein. We met her in Florence. She had a villa in Florence or “villino,” a small villa. And I worked with my mother in her studio because to make money she was doing lampshades. So I helped with that.

Judith Gertler [00:03:59] You met an American and came to the United States.

Joella Bayer [00:04:02] Yes, I met him… think I met him through Marcel Duchamp, who was a great friend of my mother.

Judith Gertler [00:04:08] And what was your first husband’s name?

Joella Bayer [00:04:11] My first husband’s name was Julien Levy. And he had a very well-known gallery. We started a gallery in 1931. Couldn’t sell anything. We were trying to prove that photography was an art.

Judith Gertler [00:04:27] And this was in New York?

Joella Bayer [00:04:28] No, that was in New York. When… we came over right way after we were married, we came over.

Judith Gertler [00:04:35] Right. When and where did you meet your husband, Herbert Bayer?

Joella Bayer [00:04:42] In my living room.

Judith Gertler [00:04:44] Is there a story with that?

Joella Bayer [00:04:46] Well, not much. I was, I was separating. My husband had gone to Paris. I had gone for business to Los Angeles, and some architects we knew said, “You know, we have the architects and designers of the Bauhaus, and they’re leaving tomorrow. And why don’t you throw a party?” So I threw the party, and Mr. Bayer did not open his mouth. And I found out much later that he didn’t know much English, was too stupid to say, “Do you know German?” I knew German very well. And that’s how I met him. And then later on, he was put…he had come over to put on a show of the Bauhaus at the Museum of Modern Art. And as all my friends had started the Museum of Modern Art, uh, you know, I was sort of involved, I mean, and meeting people. We all went to all the openings and…

Judith Gertler [00:05:55] And that’s how the two of you met and got to know each other?

Joella Bayer [00:05:57] Well, we wouldn’t marry for a long time. We didn’t marry for six years.

Judith Gertler [00:06:07] What year were you married and… what year did you marry Herbert Bayer?

Joella Bayer [00:06:11] I’ve been trying to figure it out. I had written it all out at home, but I couldn’t remember it the other day for somebody. I would say…it was…1938.

Judith Gertler [00:06:31] Just about the time of World War II.

Joella Bayer [00:06:33] Well, you see, he’d come over on his wife’s papers. She was born in America, although they didn’t live together for 6 or 7 years. And I didn’t have enough money with three children.

Kevin Padden (sound) [00:06:47] Excuse me, um, using your hand like that, it keeps hitting the mic.

Joella Bayer [00:06:51] Oh, I see, I see.

Kevin Padden (sound) [00:06:53] Sorry.

Joella Bayer [00:06:56] Um. So we had to wait. He had to wait very long to get his American citizenship. Because in those days, you couldn’t divorce. It was a misde–, not a misdemeanor, but it was something very wrong. And they would throw you out of America. It was very, very strict. Well, it must have been six years after the war started or something, but I have all the dates somewhere. I didn’t know I was going to be interviewed.

Judith Gertler [00:07:31] It isn’t really critical. That’s just fine. Could you give us a very brief history of your husband, Herbert Bayer’s life, up until the point at which he met you, just in terms of where he lived and some of what he did and his training and education?

Joella Bayer [00:07:52] Well, he was born in Haag, H-double A-G, Austria, and then they moved. The family moved to Linz. So Linz is in the mountains a little, but now it’s quite a commercial place. And he went to school there. But then in 19–, you see, he was born at the turn of, the turn of the century. So in 1917 he went into the army, and they were very poor and they starved and all that. And then when he came out, his father died, so he couldn’t go to Vienna for his, um, he was going to go to the art school in Vienna, the big one. And he got hold of the thing of the Bauhaus. Somehow, he saw the manifesto of the Bauhaus, and he went there and was there quite a few years. And he married there, and he separated there, I suppose. But, um, I never knew him in Germany. And then…

Judith Gertler [00:09:13] And then he found his way to New York…

Joella Bayer [00:09:14] Well, the wife was Jewish, and he, though his child has the name of Bayer, he had to get them out. Anyhow, everybody was getting out. Christians, Jews, anybody was getting out. And… but he had this show to do. So he came with the show and stayed.

Judith Gertler [00:09:39] The two of you meet and eventually you marry. And…

Joella Bayer [00:09:44] He didn’t like New York.

Judith Gertler [00:09:45] He didn’t?

Joella Bayer [00:09:46] No. He didn’t feel he could do his work. They were always asking him to do something he’d done six years before, you know, show him a magazine from Berlin and said, “Do us something like that. “And he said, “I can’t, I’m not on that place anymore.” It was a little difficult because they didn’t have or honor good designers as they did in Germany. And anyhow, he wanted to get out of New York. So we first went to Mexico for two months just to have a vacation after we got married. And, um, I think he was asked by a big company to go and work there, and we both felt we couldn’t stand the way they treated the poor people there. And so we started to think, where would we go? He didn’t want to go to Vermont. He didn’t want to go to some other place, still too near New York. And then I said, “Well, I have an idea.” And I called the art dir–, a woman who was in the art department, assistant to the art director at Mr. Paepcke’s place. And I said, “Tell your boss the next time he comes to New York to bring the photographs of Aspen,” because he had wanted us to leave what we were doing in the summer and come up here because he’d discovered it, and we said, “No, we will come later.” And so we came later. Instead of coming in the summer, we came between Christmas and New Year’s.

Judith Gertler [00:11:39] Okay, let’s back up just a little bit. Your husband met Walter Paepcke when he was working for him, doing some design work for the Container Corporation?

Joella Bayer [00:11:48] Yes, we both met him. No, we met him first in New York. He had us out for dinner, um, because Herbert couldn’t go to Chicago. He was working with an advertising agency, and… but he didn’t like it. Herbert was not the person who could work with the…yes, he was very good at working with other people, but he was too much of an inventor and too much of an artist. He needed being alone. And so we came to a very good arrangement, and we came up to look at the place. And after a few days they said to me, “Well, what do you think? Would you like moving here?” I said, “Yes,” and they said, “What about your husband?” I said, “You know, my husband can’t make up his mind very quickly, so he…we’ll have to wait.” In two days, he had…there wasn’t sun even out here. It was gray. And he said he would…and then we bought the little house.

Judith Gertler [00:12:52] Where did you buy a house? Where was your first home here?

Joella Bayer [00:12:57] Oh, we only had… oh, it’s on Second…on Second and some street across, but I never knew the street name because name…there were no names on the streets in those days.

Judith Gertler [00:13:17] Joella, I read that this was 1945, December of 1945. Does that sound right to you? When you came here for the first time?

Joella Bayer [00:13:27] Yes, that could be. But then we moved here in ’46.

Judith Gertler [00:13:31] So you moved here in ’46?

Joella Bayer [00:13:33] Naturally, I can verify, but…

Judith Gertler [00:13:37] Do you remember… first of all, did you take the train here or how did you get here?

Joella Bayer [00:13:42] We met the Paepckes in, uh, Chicago, because it was between Christmas and New Year’s, and we got on the train with them. And then in Denver at the big hotel, we waited for their cars because they had a big ranch in, um, near Colorado Springs. And then we came up.

Judith Gertler [00:14:09] Do you remember when you drove into Aspen with the Paepckes and your husband?

Joella Bayer [00:14:15] Well, it was very dark. At that time, it was very dark. I mean, it was the evening because we had to wait… They hadn’t expressed… the people who were running their ranch were used to meeting just Mr. and Mrs., and maybe the girls, but they hadn’t explained that there were two more people, so there wasn’t enough room. We waited for another car to come. But there was nothing. We could walk six abreast up, down Main Street without seeing a car.

Judith Gertler [00:14:53] What else do you remember about those first days in Aspen when you visited? In terms of how Aspen looked?

Joella Bayer [00:14:59] Well, I liked it very, very much. First of all, I like old things. Or I liked old things then. And the houses, you see, were very beautiful with the snow over them. We didn’t have any sun on the whole week or ten days. We met the judge. Did you know the judge? Was he still alive when you first came? I forget his name. With his wife. And they owned all these little houses. People hadn’t paid their taxes, you see, so they appropriated them instead of giving them to the city. And, um, that’s what they sold to Mr. Paepcke.

Judith Gertler [00:15:39] Would that have been Judge Shaw?

Joella Bayer [00:15:41] Yes.

Judith Gertler [00:15:43] Could you…?

Joella Bayer [00:15:45] But I don’t know whether you can write and say that they were, sort of… Well, we didn’t feel that they had been acquired honestly. But still, they were very good. I mean, they were the only people we knew at the beginning.

Judith Gertler [00:16:04] Were there any restaurants in town or any general stores?

Joella Bayer [00:16:08] Well, we ate, we ate at the hotel. Uh, I don’t think that when… I don’t know how much, um, Mr. Paepcke had envisaged, but he wanted us to move right away. And my husband was with an advertising agency that he’d worked with in Berlin and Paris, and, um, he didn’t want to let them down. He was a great person for not wanting to let people down. And so we only moved in April. The first person we met was, to really speak to well in English, was Fritz Benedict.

Judith Gertler [00:16:57] What do you remember about the first meeting with Fritz Benedict?

Joella Bayer [00:17:01] I remember it very well. Herbert had gone walking on the Wednesday, and I had arranged myself in the house that belonged to the Paepckes, comfortably, you see. And then the next day was Easter Sunday. And he came to me, and he said, “You must come up. There’s the most beautiful ledge at the top. And it was beautiful, sunny, and there were all these flowers, wildflowers. And so we got there, and we came… the road was not where it’s now. The road came up sort of in front of the old house. I think the old house is still there. I haven’t been up this time. Um, there, there were two young men on Easter Sunday working on a sort of chalet, small chalet. And I’ve never seen two people so anxious to leave what they were doing. They hadn’t seen any strangers or anybody. And one was Fritz, and the other one was one of the architects that he knew from working with the architect he worked with, you know his name…Frank Lloyd Wright. And so we got to talking, and we found he’d been in the Tenth Mountain Division, and he’d been to Italy. So he brought out all the pictures from Italy. And I think there was one of our house or of the hill where my house was, our house was. And so we had a lot to talk about. And he was our first real social life.

Judith Gertler [00:18:54] Do you remember anyone else that you met in those early days?

Joella Bayer [00:18:59] Yes. We must have met Friedl and his first wife, for sure. And then, I don’t remember the names, you see. Well, there was somebody in the school. There were about four of them getting started, and uh, I remember meeting the wives of whoever it was. I remember very well that one day we had, we went on a picnic. The only way you entertained was picnics, 4 or 5:00 in the afternoon. We didn’t have daylight saving times for a long time. There was always a fight with Colorado that didn’t want it. The people down the valley said the cows wouldn’t, you know, they couldn’t milk the cows at the right time. And so I met them, but they had a beautiful red carpet, which I hadn’t been used to seeing red carpets in the living room because I hadn’t been in the mountains or in the, in New York. Um, and before you knew it, you turned around, they were all playing a game of tickling each other. Well, we were a little old for that, but I think, I think my husband joined the men. I was always a little too shy. And that’s the ones, the four that had the school. You probably can find them in your… Friedl and a young man who made quite a career. He had a wife, and they had a child. And then when she expected the second one, he thought he couldn’t make a living here. None of them could make a living.

Judith Gertler [00:21:00] It’s a wonderful story.

Joella Bayer [00:21:02] I don’t know, who else did we meet? The grocer was very nice. He had the grocery, um, where the post office was, the old post office, but he wasn’t yet out of the post office, so he was next door. And I remember he, when he delivered the groceries, he also delivered me a posy of flowers. I mean, everybody was very curious about us. Why had we moved here?

Judith Gertler [00:21:34] I was going to ask you that. It sounds like you and Aspen had an instant attraction for each other.

Joella Bayer [00:21:42] Well, we, I mean, Aspen had it for us. I don’t know whether the other people liked us.

Judith Gertler [00:21:49] In addition to what you’ve told us, what were some of the things that made you decide to stay in Aspen?

Joella Bayer [00:21:57] Well, first of all, we were through with New York. We’d cashed it all out. We looked at all the angles, and I said I could work anywhere, and there were no secretaries or anything. So I had to stay on and take the phone calls from Chicago or anything when they were after him. And write the letters. There were some girls that knew how to type. That was all. And so, no, we had it all hashed out. There was no, we brought everything: linens, furniture, art.

Judith Gertler [00:22:37] So it was a good decision that you made.

Joella Bayer [00:22:40] Well, we, we always made good decisions. I mean, we thought it over. We didn’t get all enthused by the glamour. There was no glamour. And then Herbert did everything. He designed the menu. He designed the drinks for the, um, bar. You know, the papers. I went down to the, uh, what do you call it?… to look up books. Old books with, um, 1900 illustrations. You know, they’re all decorated on the side. So that, we went by that, and we made it. I thought it was very good. I thought you should have a whole collection of those, don’t you?

Judith Gertler [00:23:42] I’ll have to check….

Joella Bayer [00:23:43] Because in between, in between, there were people running this, and they might have changed that and never thought of keeping them. We would have thought of keeping them. If I have them in the files, I can send them to you.

Judith Gertler [00:24:00] That would be wonderful. I heard that not only did Herbert design the brochures, but that you and he and perhaps Fabi and Fritz were pictured in the brochure. For instance, for the Hotel Jerome.

Joella Bayer [00:24:15] No. Not us.

Judith Gertler [00:24:17] No.

Joella Bayer [00:24:18] Not us. I remember the daughter of the, uh, head man. What do you call him?

Judith Gertler [00:24:32] The owner? Or…

Joella Bayer [00:24:33] No, no, wasn’t the owner. He was the head of the city.

Judith Gertler [00:24:41] The mayor?

Joella Bayer [00:24:41] Um.

Judith Gertler [00:24:45] Was it a mayor in those days?

Joella Bayer [00:24:46] A mayor. Yes, he was the mayor. And the first girl. You must have the posters because we gave, I left some here. Um. A girl in the chairlift going up, that was his daughter.

Judith Gertler [00:25:03] Can you think of any stories, anything that happened in those, in the late ’40s and the early ’50s of what it was like to live here?

Joella Bayer [00:25:15] Oh, wonderful.

Judith Gertler [00:25:17] What did you…?

Joella Bayer [00:25:18] You couldn’t get anything. We were very inventive. I mean, for fruit we had to go with…I had three boys, and I think we borrowed a truck from Fritz and take big baskets and get the fruit on the way to Grand Junction. We weren’t much, uh, meat eaters, so we didn’t have much meat here. And I think you had…cottage cheese came once a week, but there were good vegetables and fruit. I used to put up the fruit in glass jars, and I had it all year. I wasn’t a great cook. I had to learn because in New York I’d always had a cook. Well, I cooked for the children afterwards, but that’s not cooking.

Judith Gertler [00:26:10] Speaking of your children, did your boys live here in town with you?

Joella Bayer [00:26:14] No. They were too grown up. They were in college, the oldest, and the third one, his father thought he was too brilliant to be in a little school, so he went, he had him in a school, and then he’d come here for the summer. But I can’t quite remember, Herbert and I thought his manners and everything were beyond belief, and we’d better keep him. Otherwise we would…  So I wrote back, and I said that the school was perfectly good enough. So he went here for the school, and then he went to the one in Colorado Springs. That was a very good school. And he graduated from that one and went to Harvard when he was, well, he graduated at 17, but the man, the head man said he’s too young emotionally to go. But they’d go every spring, they’d go and get potatoes from the ground. And I’ll never forget his coming back after two hours, the first time he went, and he said, “Well, my partner came with a very bad hangover.” And he said, “I don’t know what to do,” but he wanted… you must remember the West was very, uh, emotional or sort of America that was THE American thing. And to live and go digging potatoes or… one of them, the youngest, worked for the first taxis, I remember, and I don’t know what the others did. I think one of them did work with Sardy. But they became part…

{break – tape runs out}

Judith Gertler [00:28:07] …showing, I guess, brochures of the Hotel Jerome showing you and Herbert. So maybe you were…

Voice off Camera [00:28:15] You’re all sitting in the bar.

Joella Bayer [00:28:17] Oh, we were all sitting in the bar. Where else did you have to sit? I didn’t drink in those days, so I was safe. And Herbert never drank much. The… who was here?… probably the second year we were there, after they opened the hotel was, well, she was a very young woman then, unmarried, who later married Darcy Brown. She had a pink house, and they gave extraordinary parties every spring. Once they had a horse downstairs, the living room was downstairs with the horse downstairs. And another day was when they said, come as roses or something like that. And so everybody had to come as a flower.

Judith Gertler [00:29:10] What did you come as?

Joella Bayer [00:29:12] I didn’t go, and I can’t remember why, but it was a valid thing, that either I was expecting a call or I had to finish something or…

Judith Gertler [00:29:25] We were talking just a moment ago about what it was like to have children in Aspen in the ’50s and the ’60s.

Joella Bayer [00:29:35] Well, it was marvelous. You took them swimming or they went swimming by themselves at the hotel in the summer, and they could get little jobs. And then the two older ones were in college. Or one of them was still, was in Colorado Springs, I don’t know, but then Jonathan went to Colorado Springs. We thought it was very good. We just could go and fetch them in Colorado Springs and bring them up. And then my older son, who had been with the…he hadn’t been with us when we moved because he was in the Navy in New York. They put them through college for 2 or 3 years. And then the war stopped and he was sent to San Francisco. And all of a sudden, we see the sailor arriving with the train. I said, “How did you come here?” And he said, “Oh, with the Toonerville Trolley.” And he was through, and then he, he was allowed to go to the college in, not in Denver, the other one.

Judith Gertler [00:30:54] In Boulder?

Joella Bayer [00:30:54] Boulder. And he finished there. Um, they could go to a college that was in the state of where their families lived. But then he went into the Air Force because he didn’t want to be put back in the Navy. And he was there 19 years. But they always brought him back to Denver, you see.

Judith Gertler [00:31:27] Joella, I’d like to ask you some questions about your involvements in Aspen and also about Herbert. Herbert’s contributions to Aspen are numerous and very well documented. Could you list some of the projects that he worked on, some of the buildings and some of the other things that, that he worked on and that he developed?

Joella Bayer [00:31:50] Um, he did the colors for all of Paepcke’s houses, which were many. I moved furniture around because I’d been a decorator, um, because at the time of the people who lived here, when it was well off, there must have been some company that came with pictures or something like that of furniture, because as Paepcke was buying new cottages, we’d found a sideboard here and a double bed there, and then I’d have them moved.

{break}

Joella Bayer [00:32:31] …Elisha, who owned the hotel, you know, and then leased it for 90 years to Paepcke, and he was kept on as engineer because he was the only one who knew how to get the hot water and the heat running in the hotel. But he was a nice guy. He was very, very nice.

Judith Gertler [00:32:55] And after Herbert renovated some of the houses…

Joella Bayer [00:33:00] Well really, he, well, he gave the colors, and we didn’t do anything structural. I don’t think Walter had the money, but his wife did quite a bit of selection and colors for the inside, and I carried on. She wasn’t here all the time, you see. Because he kept his work in Chicago. He had wanted an artist to help him here.

Judith Gertler [00:33:31] What were some other…? As the years went on, what were some of Herbert’s contributions to Aspen in terms of design and architecture?

Joella Bayer [00:33:40] Well, when they did The Meadows, he designed all those things. Remember, The Meadows only cost $6 a square foot. You couldn’t do very much. And the decorations were just minimal, um, but they looked stylish. They looked quite nice. But we had the…but that was Paepcke’s doing. He had the, um, that very famous man who was working in Africa.

Judith Gertler [00:34:20] Albert Schweitzer?

Joella Bayer [00:34:23] Schweitzer. They got him here because Schweitzer did not realize this was in the mountains, thought it was just a little suburb of Chicago. Chicago had asked him, and then Walter was an instrumental of having the University of Chicago bring it up here. And it was absolutely marvelous. I’ve never seen such high-grade thinkers. And they were all going under the trees discussing. And it was a marvelous two weeks because Schweitzer talked the two weekends and then the other ones were all the other big men. The person who has the whole album with all the pictures on the lawn is my younger son, Jonathan. Because Herbert and I were too shy, we wouldn’t have gone and said, “Can I have your…?” But we thought a young man, a young boy could. So he went, and he’s had it, and has kept it and he’s put it in vaults, but he’s kept it. And there must be quite a few photographs of that. Don’t you have a lot of photographs? I have quite a few, because they also started with the music, you see, at the same time.

Judith Gertler [00:35:49] Can you describe the beginning of the Music Festival as you remember it?

Joella Bayer [00:35:54] Well, we had a tent. I forget the name of the first architect they had do the tent and the bowl.

Judith Gertler [00:36:05] Saarinen. Was it Saarinen?

Joella Bayer [00:36:07] No, his name was Northern European, either… wasn’t Swedish, but from that region. He got to be a very well known, uh, architect. And, but he used, at the time it was very new, he used a circus tent. But the circus tent had a way of getting torn with the wind and the water, rain before we took it down. Or when it got torn, if you want to have it mended, you had to have the whole thing down. Then Herbert designed this other one. First of all, he got it bigger and all kinds of things. And it’s pleated, you know, like this. So every three pleats, you could undo it, unzip it, or maybe it was every four, I’m not sure. And it was much more practical. Herbert was a very practical person. He thought that being, solving something practically, was not meaning bad design. And so he always… and also he designed all of The Meadows and then he and the young man, up till last year, they were always conferring together. I mean, the young man, like King Woodward, at the end was absolutely in charge of everything. And Herbert did his rounds, and they decided when the roof had to be painted. Uh, I don’t know…when we built on the mountain, we built rather modern, but it also was the cheapest way. And Fritz did a lot of things that belonged in nature, you know. I don’t know if you’ve been to his house lately. This is the window. And then the roof was covered with grass. And he had that before, in another house beforehand, and he always wanted the house covered with it. Herbert wanted the view. He wanted to be right high up and see everything downtown.

Judith Gertler [00:38:54] Did Fritz Benedict and your husband work on very many projects?

Joella Bayer [00:38:58] Oh, a lot, a lot.

Judith Gertler [00:39:00] How did they, how did they work together?

Joella Bayer [00:39:03] Well, Herbert didn’t want to have a big office. And first of all, he was not going to go out of his way of getting architecture. He felt he was not… You see, the, um, Bauhaus believed that in some… given that a man has talent and knows the way of doing the different things, um, he can do anything he wants. But he has to know the discipline. You know, how to make a house, not just design a pretty one. And so he was really the right person as Paepcke wanted. Whatever he did new, he did not want to do Victorian because we had very good Victorian. Six of the best, uh, houses were set afire by a pyro. In between the time we were here that Christmas and the April when we arrived, I think 5 or 6 houses were burned.

Judith Gertler [00:40:12] How did that happen, Joella?

Joella Bayer [00:40:13] Well, he was a disturbed young man. And he was… I don’t remember his name. The doctor knew… I don’t know whether it was the first year, but it was in the next year. But I know we’d been out of town, so it must have been the first year. And I don’t know what makes people pyromaniacs. But he… everybody knew who it was. He was related to everybody in town. And there it was. But there was one that my husband made into a postcard. You know, I gave you quite a lot of postcards long ago, and it’s got gables. And then Herbert put, uh, some figures coming out from the windows, they being to show that it was empty, and we never had another house that was such beautiful detail. And then on the first summer we were here, the ice gave out on the 17th of July. I’ll never forget it. They took it… they had an icehouse by the lake as you go out of town, I don’t know whether it still exists, the lake. And so, I don’t know, either they bought it at the grocer or somebody came around once a week and brought it. Um, but then after July, we didn’t have anything.

Judith Gertler [00:41:53] How did you function?

Joella Bayer [00:41:56] Well, you just didn’t freeze anything. Oh, I didn’t have a stove. What do you call it? A range, electric range, until 2 or 3 years in. You must remember nothing was being made. Everything had been made for the war. So you couldn’t go out and get a refrigerator. But I did get sort of an apartment stove with three burners. You just cooked less, that’s all.

Judith Gertler [00:42:33] Let’s go back for a moment. I wanted to ask you another question about Herbert and Fritz. Fritz had been trained with Frank Lloyd Wright and Herbert…?

Joella Bayer [00:42:45] But he’d studied architecture, Frank Lloyd Wright, no design or anything. Herbert had done the whole routine of the Bauhaus school, but had not done… except he knew enough, because afterwards California gave him a degree. I mean Colorado. Between the two, they managed very well.

Judith Gertler [00:43:22] Speaking of, of the two of them, on Sunday two days ago, on the 8th of August, there was a rededication of the tent that you were describing, and it is now called the Bayer-Benedict tent. And I’m wondering, as you were sitting in the tent listening to the music and the ceremony for the dedication, would you be willing to share any thoughts that you had or any memories you had about the earlier days?

Joella Bayer [00:43:58] Well, I’m not very emotional with all the English blood that I had, but, and I have no more tears. After a certain age, your tears dry up. I wanted to cry, and it was very emotional. It reminded me of all the concerts we’d gone to. All the things, the troubles they’d had, and suddenly it’s all down, or all up. There was always some accident somewhere. To me, everybody in New York said, “Oh, Joella’s sold the bill of goods. She’s going to… she’s never been West. She’s never gone up a mountain. Um, she’ll be bored stiff. She’ll be back in one year.” To me, it was a wonderful place. And I didn’t get as upset about leaving it like Herbert. But Herbert got very emotional about leaving.

Judith Gertler [00:45:08] I wonder if we can pick this up in a moment, because I wanted to, to ask you, we talked about some of Herbert’s projects and designs, and I’d like to talk about some of your involvements here.

Joella Bayer [00:45:23] Well, I’ve always been the second pair of hands. For my mother, when she prepared a show, I would get the frames to work or build the frame. And with my first husband, I worked in his gallery. I knew all the artists in Paris, so they trusted us a little more. But we were very young. I mean, I was 31, so only 30. Yeah, we did it in ’31, and I hung the pictures, I cleaned the glass and… But I was still of an era that the man is it, not the woman. I mean, I wouldn’t have tried to… Well, if we had difficult artists who spoke languages that Julien couldn’t speak, and his assistant, who was also the salesman, um, then I was asked in. Also, art is sort of gentler with a woman, like with Salvador Dali. He came. The first show was quite successful, so he came for the second one the next year, and he took a black tuxedo coat and hung it on a bentwood chair and glued little, um, glasses, as they have in Paris at the cafes, and wanted green liqueur put in, but all at different sizes. Well, the men just took one look and left. So I was there, and we did it. And he never got angry. He got angry very easily, you know, he was mad as a hatter, but we got on. And then he was, had little pieces of plaster that he painted on. They were quite beautiful. And I said, ‘You like to paint on that plaster?” And he said yes. He said, “Have you got any?” And I wanted to be polite. And I thought, well, I’ll look in the storeroom. And there staring me was a head that Man Ray had done with a new way of taking impression, and, um, had sent it to me in such a terrible…it’s sort of like shoe polish over it. I thought I would get it in white, like all the things he had in the studio. But anyhow, he remembered to send it. Well, when Dali saw it, his eyes popped up. I don’t know, I’ve never been able to say whether they were natural popping up or theatrical. And he took a taxi, went to his hotel and in a few days we had it for the opening. And he’d even, with Julien, he’d given the sizes of the glass case that went over it. And I had it all the time in New York, and I brought it out here. And then I took it to California. Well, in California it started to get, um, you know, damp there, and it was scaling and the color… We took it to the Getty Museum, where we knew the man, and he said, “Well, we’ll watch it for you.” And they watched it 2 or 3, and they told us what to put in a little saucer. But then we found we had to have it in a box, no, it was sort of like a carton, a little open. But we had to always see that everything was right. So after Herbert died, I didn’t know how much money I had. I mean, you know, he was being paid, very well paid at the end. And to have an investment broker, you have to have an idea how much you have. And I couldn’t do anything with this. I couldn’t send it to a show. It was weak in the neck. And so somebody came from Christie’s and they said they were having a sale, and he’d come all the way from London. He was told that I had this place, so I gave it to them for sale. But I have pictures of myself with it.

Judith Gertler [00:49:56] Let’s go back a moment. You said that you were your mother’s extra pair of hands and your first husband, Julien’s pair of hands. How did you function?

Joella Bayer [00:50:04] My first husband started to drink so much.

Judith Gertler [00:50:07] Let’s move on to your second husband. I’d like to know how you were Herbert’s pair of hands, what you did as the business part of Herbert’s work. And how you, how you functioned to help him and to…

Joella Bayer [00:50:22] Well, we were a team. We were, we had been very devoted to each other for many years. I think I sort of interpreted America to him. That it wasn’t as bad as he thought, and especially after we came here. Before he always had a secretary and an assistant working for him, and here there was nobody or assistants. He got assistants to do the, um, geographic atlas. But, um, I don’t know…

Judith Gertler [00:50:54] So did you handle the finances or did you…?

Joella Bayer [00:50:59] Yes. Sort of. What we had. I made it come out even at the end of the month, because we came with, he said that we only had, Herbert had to only work quarter of his time for Aspen, a quarter of his time for Chicago. But it came to much more than that. So they did give raises, but it, they didn’t have much money either. And he had this grandiose idea of Aspen. But Herbert wanted to live in Aspen. I wanted to live in Aspen. And you didn’t need any money. You had blue jeans. I got some of these suits that you got, you know, jackets and skirts they had for women then. And then blue denim and that’s it.

Judith Gertler [00:51:47] It was a simple way of living.

Joella Bayer [00:51:49] It was a simple way of living. And we had, what shall I say, outings in the mountains. I, even with my bad legs, was able to climb some, some.

Judith Gertler [00:52:07] Can you describe these outings in the mountains?

Joella Bayer [00:52:11] Uh, there was one place, when you go out, out of the city. But which way is it? East?

Judith Gertler [00:52:26] Toward Independence?

Joella Bayer [00:52:27] Towards Independence. Uh, and then you took off on the right where there’d been an old village or something, and we went way out where the… I suppose it was the sheepherders or somebody had had… this one was a very decent thing. I think it was the… I forget who was it who told us about it. And we used to go there quite a bit, and I collected flowers. We collected… I don’t know, there’s always something to do. I mean, I could type the letters. I cooked for six people every day, three times a day in summer. So that took time.

Judith Gertler [00:53:22] Did you do any entertaining?

Joella Bayer [00:53:24] Oh, yes. We entertained. Picnics. Everybody entertained with picnics. And then when we got the house on the mountain, I had the idea of cutting down into the aspen trees, which were very small. I thought they would… the other ones would grow up, which they did. And we had a place for tables where we ate and asked people up from the Institute or from out of town, I mean…nothing fancy. But I remember Stein when he first came here, we had the apartment in the Bowman Block, and we had a small…. Well, I think we had, you know, we would eat off your lap, and I’d done a dish, I can’t even remember what it was. And he came to me three times and he said, “Tell me, who is your cook? I mean, who did it for you? Which restaurant did it for you?” I said, “No,” I said, “I did it myself.” He wouldn’t believe me, but I did it all myself. But then they started having people who cooked. We had some very good cooks at the Hotel Jerome.

Judith Gertler [00:54:46] Can you remember? Did you spend time with Elizabeth Paepcke? Did you spend time with Elizabeth Paepcke?

Joella Bayer [00:54:53] Oh, yes, oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, I was working, but she worked very hard, too. She was cooking for the whole family because they had three daughters. And then they had relatives that came out. No, we were great friends. I haven’t seen her yet because she’s been sick. And I want to see, maybe see her tomorrow.

Judith Gertler [00:55:18] When the two of you would spend time together, you and Elizabeth, when you weren’t working, what kinds of things…

Joella Bayer [00:55:25] Did we discuss?

Judith Gertler [00:55:26] What would you talk about? Or what would you do?

Joella Bayer [00:55:29] I don’t know… The problems of the day or what? The musicians whom we liked. But we were always with him and Herbert. I mean, you couldn’t be. She was a very brilliant woman. I suppose she has been up till a few months ago. Very well educated, which I was not as well educated, but she was interested in architecture. She’d worked as an architect for two years, and she read a lot. And she did the Great Books with Adler. There were a group of them in Chicago that followed him, so I couldn’t too much. Oh, we discussed the children if there were problems and… She wasn’t the person, I once said to her, she was leaving. I said, “Do you want me to look after this for you?” She said, “No, you have enough to do.” She was very, she wasn’t making use of, she never made use of people.

Judith Gertler [00:56:46] Joella, as you look back, what are you most proud of when you think about your life in Aspen?

Joella Bayer [00:56:58] What do I think… more?

Judith Gertler [00:57:01] What are you, when you think about your life in Aspen and remember it fondly, what are you most proud of?

Joella Bayer [00:57:11] That I’d gotten Herbert out of New York. And myself. Our marriage wouldn’t have lasted. His first wife called every day, although they’d been separated for 6 or 7 years. And my first husband started calling and saying that I should do this about the education and that about the education. I thought the marriage wouldn’t last with these phone calls. No, I don’t know. I was not as upset over leaving as Herbert was.

Judith Gertler [00:57:50] You did leave. Could you tell us when you left for Santa Barbara?

Joella Bayer [00:57:56] Uh, for, for Santa Barbara? It was…it must have been just before Thanksgiving, ’78, I suppose.

Judith Gertler [00:58:15] And can you describe to us why you both moved to Santa Barbara?

Joella Bayer [00:58:21] Well, Herbert was working all the time with Cont–, with Arco. They’d fly him here and come back, and people came to work with him here. And they thought it was just wonderful. If it was near…

Greg Poschman (camera) [00:58:36] I need to change tapes.

Judith Gertler [00:58:39] Can you hold on just a moment? They want to change tapes.

{break}

Judith Gertler [00:58:40] There was a time, perhaps in the late ’50s or ’60s…

Joella Bayer [00:58:44] No, late ’50s.

Judith Gertler [00:58:45] In the late ’50s, that you were a little bit bored with Aspen.

Joella Bayer [00:58:50] Well, then we started to travel. Herbert was invited to head, to be the chief speaker in a… not Egyptian, um… In Tokyo, a, quite a group of designers from Japan had been coming here. They knew about Herbert via Japan. So we made a lot of friends. And then they started to talk to him, would he be one of the chief speakers if they set it up for 1960? Well, there was, probably between ’50 and ’60, that it was a little boring here, but not so boring. It was, I felt I wanted to travel, but we went twice to Japan in 1960, and we stayed quite a long time. And that’s when Walter Paepcke died, I think. Herbert took it quite bad. I mean, he’d been seeing him, going to see him all the time in Chicago before we went to, uh, Tokyo. But then we went back in ’72 to put on a show. Then we went back again to take it apart. It was a Bauhaus show. They knew a lot about the Bauhaus, the Japanese designers, and then they were very much for design, you see. So we had a very nice time, and we knew them. And then they used to come back, but we left, so we didn’t see them too often. Then, also Container Corporation, before Herbert was 65, Container Corporation had a, had him design a factory, I think, in Germany or go over and do things. So we went to Germany, and so it started that we were traveling. And then Herbert had the idea that he had to have something on the beach. He had to get away from Aspen. And I, we found, uh, Morocco. And I had a ball because there was nothing. There were no furniture that you could use, except beds, and then these benches to put around the walls, and carpets, brass. And so Herbert could paint all day, and I could go shopping…or nothing. They were really cheap. And I only gave this house away to the school, to the American School. They did a marvelous job there. Well, then we got to know, I found somebody who’d gone to the same school I had gone to. A neighbor knew a lot of our artists at the gallery. He was an Englishman. And then Paul Bowles, who will be known in the newspapers about the movie they did. It’s a terrible movie, I’ve been told, by his best friend. They moved there when, I think, I moved to Aspen, they moved over there, and so I found them again there. So there was a connection.

Judith Gertler [01:02:53] And in the late ’70s, you said that you moved to Santa Barbara on a permanent basis?

Joella Bayer [01:02:59] Yes.

Judith Gertler [01:03:00] Can you talk about, again about why you moved and, and what your lives were like in Santa Barbara?

Joella Bayer [01:03:08] He moved because he had a heart attack in Switzerland. When we went to decorate and furnish a house that the Berlin, uh, they called it the Berlin something. Berlin/Aspen, where for five years the government of the city had given it to this, to us here. And they wanted Herbert to sort of pull it together. Naturally, they didn’t have much money, and Herbert couldn’t go around shopping. So he sat in the hotel room, and I and a girl from the Institute went around and discovered things. She tells to this day that I taught her everything about design. I told her how to find the cheap things. But that, you see, there was always something like that that I could use, what I could do well, you see. And Herbert didn’t, he gave advice, but he didn’t question what I did. You know, it wasn’t like even working for a boss or anything.

Judith Gertler [01:04:24] And he had a heart attack in Switzerland?

Joella Bayer [01:04:26] And he had a heart attack in Switzerland the day before a very big show of his opened in Zurich. And he couldn’t, wasn’t allowed to travel for three months after. It was pretty severe. Not the beginning, but at the end. He had a relapse, and he was told not to move, to stay 3 or 4 days in Denver, whereupon he stayed one day. You know, very charming people. I don’t know what it is…. tigers, you cannot move them. He said, “No, no, no, always you have it all wrong. The doctors never said that.” You know, that kind of thing. So then we opened. They had a grand opening, let’s say, in October. And he wanted to go for it because Mrs. Paepcke and her brother were going and other people were going, and they all were donating, they’d donated tapestries that Herbert had designed, and they’d made for the place. And I suppose he just wanted to see it. He also had promised the local doctor here that he would sleep every afternoon. And I’d say to Herbert… well, after all, he was only 75, I said, “You’re supposed to rest. What about us and all these bedroom or slumber rooms you did for the professors and people who were coming to lecture? “Oh, but everybody would think I’m an old man.” And one day I said, “Well, what do you think? You ARE an old man.” He didn’t see himself. He didn’t see gray hair. I remember Elli Iselin saying to me, “You know, his hair is exactly the color of his tweed jacket.” And the tweed jacket was black and white. I thought he had gray hair, but he said, “I have no gray hair.” So we all laughed at the table.

Judith Gertler [01:06:40] How did, how did you adjust to life in Santa Barbara?

Joella Bayer [01:06:45] We had lots of friends there. We’d been there before. Herbert had given lectures for three months once. It was in ’69 when there was lots of rain and all the birds got full of the oil spill. So we knew people at the university and the art department. And then there were three girls from here. Tukey Jonas, she was then, and… I forget the other names. But anyhow, they were there, and we met people. There were people in the arts and the museum, a little gallery. There was one gallery by a woman who was quite well known for a gallery. She’d shown Herbert so, and he didn’t do too much. He was not allowed to drive for quite a long time, but we gave him the biggest… Arco had an apartment on the water near there, where they put people up. So they put us up there. And then in spring, Bob said, “I think you’d better look for a house. I don’t think that Herbert will make it back.” And so I started. But, well, Bob always came up and his wife and…

Judith Gertler [01:08:18] And this would be Bob? Who are we talking about?

Joella Bayer [01:08:18] ’75… I was… Well, then I looked at the houses, and now that’s one of my passions, looking at houses. That’s why I had such a good time in Morocco. Just loved looking at houses and seeing what people had done. The English were very bad at doing things that were modernizing. Um, but it was interesting. Then our secretary came out in winter from here. She had, had her own apartment here, and she’d come out for the winter. She became a different person. She loved it.

Judith Gertler [01:09:00] And since Herbert’s death in 1985… did Herbert die in 1985?

Joella Bayer [01:09:08] Yes.

Judith Gertler [01:09:08] Can you describe to us what your life is like now and, in terms of, uh…

Joella Bayer [01:09:16] Well, it’s more boring because I had every intention of going to this house, what do you call it? The retirement home, which is very famous. It’s much better than anything else in America. There is this beautiful park and a lot of artistic people, people who worked in museums, I mean, directors and things like that. You even have the, uh, granddaughter of Hyman, lives there with her husband. She became a doctor, I think, and there’s lots of people to talk to. And I had friends there already, but they had a sale. It was very difficult to get what you wanted. You could only have two rooms, a living room and a bedroom. I wanted the biggest possible, and I hadn’t thought whether I wanted in on the ground floor or the second floor. But now I have a perfect one. Unfortunately, it’s a little small, but I have been able to put all my clothes there. I have enough storage. The food is a little… People and my doctor said, “Well, why do you fuss about it?” It’s, you know, it’s the same everywhere, in schools and…

Judith Gertler [01:10:40] It’s different than your cooking.

Joella Bayer [01:10:42] But the people have had their little kitchenettes done over. I put my name down.

Judith Gertler [01:10:47] Joella, I wanted to ask you something else. To skip back, just a moment, I remember, you were telling a story when you came in today, before we started taping, about how the Aspen Historical Society began and how Herbert had had an idea. And then the women…

Joella Bayer [01:11:04] Got all the women to…

Judith Gertler [01:11:05] Could you start at the beginning of that story and talk about how this developed?

Joella Bayer [01:11:11] I have to remember the man whose mother gave the idea, and I don’t know if you want it.

Judith Gertler [01:11:19] It’s not really important.

Joella Bayer [01:11:19] Well, anyhow, there was this very arrogant, rich woman from Park Avenue whose husband’s family had done airplanes, very good airplane. And his son lived here married to somebody called Barbara… tall? And, um, then they got a divorce. But before the divorce, she, the mother used to come up here quite often and stirred up people about historical societies, said now is the time to do it. So Herbert got the women all lined up, and then when it was done, he said, “Goodbye. It’s all yours.” He didn’t like going to meetings. I used to go, I was on the board of the hospital and some other things, but he didn’t like it when I went off in the evening.

Judith Gertler [01:12:22] Thank you.

Joella Bayer [01:12:24] He loved me to work as long as it was his work. Let’s put it that way.

Judith Gertler [01:12:33] In closing, as we close for this afternoon, you’re visiting here this weekend or this week for, for the first time in a long time. And I’m, I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to look around Aspen and to perhaps walk around.

Joella Bayer [01:12:53] Well, I did two years ago.

Judith Gertler [01:12:55] Ok. When you were here two years ago, and when you’re here now, can you tell us what it’s like to be back and, and how you see Aspen?

Joella Bayer [01:13:05] Well, it’s, it’s like being in another city. It’s sort of like being in another country thing. The, uh, growth, the bushes, the trees are all much bigger. So you don’t see so much on Red Mountain, on the lower part, what they’ve done. But at the top they put some very heavy, uh…I think someday they’re going to slide down.

Judith Gertler [01:13:36] The houses?

Joella Bayer [01:13:37] I don’t know. If you had a lot of rain, for example. But the people like them, they put it out…

{break – tape runs out}

Joella Bayer [01:13:48] I didn’t mind leaving Aspen so much.

Judith Gertler [01:13:59] Are we rolling? Okay. Sorry to have interrupted you. When you’re through with your water, would you begin again, please?

Joella Bayer [01:14:15] You know, I don’t stay here long enough because I’m still running Herbert’s studio. I got everything in the, uh, computer, and we have, we fax with my younger son, who helps me with advice. Now, the older son is interested, and, uh, we sent some things to exhibition, but there’s not much in the art world. The art world is completely dead. They do, you can sell photographs, but I didn’t have any, many vintage prints of Herbert’s. They want to know facts. They’re writing books. People, there was a German who came and wanted to, wanted to come in three weeks because he was writing his dissertation. I said, “I’m sorry, I’m leaving town.”

Judith Gertler [01:15:09] And now that you’re here in Aspen, uh, for, for a short time…

Joella Bayer [01:15:14] I couldn’t stay here. You see, I’ve never driven. I had an accident once, and I was so startled. I said to the police, “Just take it away and tell Herbert that I can’t possibly ever learn how to drive.” I was frightened of it. I know you have to be in good control of your muscles. And I wasn’t brought up… oh, in New York, we, yes, my husband had a car for weekends, but we didn’t use it in town.

Judith Gertler [01:15:47] Joella, I’m sorry to interrupt you. I just wanted to go back to one other thing we were talking about before we close. You said that the town looks somewhat different. There’s growth of both of, of natural and also big houses with gates. And you started to say that there are gates, that you can no longer, and then you, the tape stopped.

Joella Bayer [01:16:08] Yes, there’s no freedom. Well, these are the very rich people, that started with Stern. He started it. Or somebody put up… the singer who came. I mean, there were never any feeling, there were no people breaking into your houses or anything. And um, I don’t know how it would have been if we’d stayed up there. We might have bought a few lots and planted more trees and… But I don’t know that Herbert would really have been happy with it. You see, walking down the street was always so nice. You met your friends, and… When we first came, we always had to decide, they only had two movies at the ISIS. Do we take the one on Monday and the one on Thursday, or do we take the Tuesday and then we take the Friday? Where do we get more, you know? But I don’t know whether they unearthed it, but there’s some marvelous Egyptian paintings at the movie house.

Judith Gertler [01:17:27] At the ISIS?

Joella Bayer [01:17:29] At the…

Judith Gertler [01:17:30] At the ISIS.

Joella Bayer [01:17:31] Yes. ISIS is a, I mean, Egyptian name.

Judith Gertler [01:17:38] Well, just about time to close. And before we do, I just wonder if there’s anything that you wanted to add or anything that we, that I haven’t asked you, that you think would be important for us to know?

Joella Bayer [01:17:54] I can say it’s disappointing to see bad houses on Hyman Street. On the other side, that go out into the street, and there are 5 or 6 of them. I don’t think that I can say anything, because in another town they’re probably much worse. I mean, they’re sort of spoiling Santa Barbara, which was a gem when we went there. And now it’s sort of fake, very heavy. But they think it’s Spanish, but still it’s all alike. And still they have strong laws, but you can’t… I mean, if I had to come here in 50, in 50 years, it would have been as looking at the early photographs when we came. It would look antique.

Judith Gertler [01:18:57] I want to thank you for giving us this time today, and for sharing…

Joella Bayer [01:19:01] I hope I didn’t talk too much with my hands. I’m well known…it’s from Florence. It’s from Italy. I talk with my hands.

Judith Gertler [01:19:09] You were terrific. Thank you very much.

Joella Bayer [01:19:12] I want to send you things that I have. But I’d like to be in touch with somebody who knows, to see what she has.

Judith Gertler [01:19:24] Lisa would be a good one to talk to as you’re walking out. And she, she will be able to help you with what the museum can use…

Joella Bayer [01:19:30] Because I don’t know who I gave the… You see, he gave the colors. He did the sketch of the building, the one across from Sardy, for example, when it became a lumber yard and then put the colors in. And I had all these, they’re not finished things, but I think they’d be very interesting to students.

Judith Gertler [01:19:58] That would be wonderful.

Joella Bayer [01:19:58] But I have to see if my assistant, who’s crazy about the, what is it? This thing that you push? Computer. We put everything on the computer. So she can say, I said, “How many do we have of this type?” And she just punches and finds them up. I mean, it’s very well organized. I’ve had foreign people who have come from collections and things saying it was in good condition. But we had humidity over the summer because we didn’t have any rain for eight years. And so it came in deluge. And then… it wasn’t so bad on the oil paintings, but it’s starting on the ones on paper, and so we have to do that.

Judith Gertler [01:21:01] It’s a lot of work to maintain that.

Joella Bayer [01:21:03] Well, we never have to do it before. But I didn’t, never had, here it was so dry, I suppose. I mean, it never was in my experience.

Judith Gertler [01:21:14] I think we’re going to stop now. Is that fine with you?

Joella Bayer [01:21:17] As you wish. You’re the boss.

Judith Gertler [01:21:19] Thank you very much.

Joella Bayer [01:21:20] You’re the boss.

Judith Gertler [01:21:22] I wish we could go on and on.