Video Interview: Jackie Wogan

2019.012.0123 Video History Jackie Wogan

Interview with Mike Monroney

Recorded at the Aspen Historical Society, September 10, 2019

 

Mike Monroney [00:00:01] Good afternoon. We’re at the Aspen Historical Society in the community room. It is September 10th, 2019, about 1:50 p.m. in the afternoon. We’re here with Jackie Wogan. My name is Mike Monroney. And also in the room is…

 

Michelle Bass [00:00:15] I’m Michelle Bass, and I’m here with Jackie and Michael.

 

Mike Monroney [00:00:16] Excellent. We’re going to ask Jackie some questions. She’s had a wonderful and memorable life. Jackie, let’s start. I’m going to have you introduce yourself. Tell us your name, even though I just did, when you were born and where you were born and when you first came to Aspen. And then we’ll let you continue from there.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:00:33] Jackie Wogan. Born Jackie Thaxter in Maine, in the hospital in Maine, weighing 2 pounds.

 

Michelle Bass [00:00:46] What date? What date?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:00:49] Oh, June 4th, 1930.

 

Mike Monroney [00:00:53] Wow. So what was it about Aspen? And you can tell us a little bit about what you did growing up, but make the connection between what you did as a youth that eventually drove you to come to Aspen in 1950, because that’s really interesting. Why did this place fit so well into what you wanted to do?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:01:15] Well, I was learning, when I got a little older, maybe starting around 14 or 15, my father used to take us all, and there were a lot of us, skiing on the golf course in Hingham, Massachusetts. And then he decided, “Well, they’re skiing so well, I think I’ll take him up to the mountains.” So, we went to New Hampshire and Vermont, and we all learned to ski.

 

Mike Monroney [00:01:43] How many brothers and sisters did you have?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:01:44] I have three sisters and one brother.

 

Mike Monroney [00:01:48] And did they all enjoy skiing as much as you did?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:01:51] I don’t think so.

 

Mike Monroney [00:01:52] Uh huh.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:01:55] I fell in love with it, and my father was in love with it. And my mother even liked it. And she was not an athletic person, but she just didn’t want to be left behind.

 

Michelle Bass [00:02:08] But you took it one more step to the French Alps when you were a junior in college, right?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:02:15] Not in college, just barely in college, when I went up there. My father took me up there because I was the only one that really liked to ski with him. He was a very good skier. He was a very good tennis player.

 

Mike Monroney [00:02:31] So you came by your athletic ability honestly.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:02:34] Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:02:34] But I think what she was asking is, you started college at Boston University, but then you went to somewhere else.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:02:41] I went to the university in France for… I was supposed to go for six months, and I spent a year there. And I went back and forth on boats, which was really fun. And we went, when I was in France, we were near all of the ski areas, the university was quite near, so it was very easy, if you had a few hours off, to go, run, go, get on a mountain.

 

Mike Monroney [00:03:16] And that was Grenoble, correct?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:03:17] Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:03:18] Yeah. Which I believe, was it the 1968 Winter Olympics? Or maybe it was the ’64 Winter Olympics?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:03:22] ’64, I think.

 

Mike Monroney [00:03:24] ’64 Winter Olympics. When Jean-Claude Killy won the gold in three of the disciplines, right? Okay. That’s interesting. You talk about you took the boat over. That’s a little different than today. It’s a little more relaxed travel than we’re used to today, isn’t it?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:03:38] Oh, I just loved the boat. Loved it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:03:40] How long did that journey take from New York to Europe?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:03:43] It took about five days.

 

Mike Monroney [00:03:45] Wow. And this must have been just after World War II, yes?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:03:50] Yeah. Well, a little bit after. Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:03:54] Okay. And just before you first came to Aspen. Well, so tell us, how did you get from Grenoble, France and skiing there, and somehow along the way, ending up with a group of friends in Aspen, Colorado?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:04:08] Well, they weren’t friends from Aspen. They were friends from Vermont. I had… there were five of us that used to go up and ski on the weekends, almost every weekend, no matter who or where they went to school, you know, we just all gathered there.

And in the summer, no, the spring of 1950, one of the guys said, “Let’s get in the car, just all get in the car….,” he had a big car, “…and we’re going to drive out to Aspen.” So, we did. But the amazing thing was, the closer we got, first we get to Glenwood and the next thing we see Sopris,

 

you know? And then I’m saying, “Where in the hell is this mountain?” Finally we get to Aspen, and the mountain was closed. It was like April 15th.

 

Mike Monroney [00:05:08] So you just missed the ski season.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:05:10] Yeah, we all went and rented skins, and for four days in a row, we skinned up the mountain and skied down, top the bottom.

 

Mike Monroney [00:05:19] That’s pretty old school. That’s what they were doing here, you know, before there was a chairlift.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:05:24] And on the fifth day, the guy who owned the car said, “Okay, get all your stuff together. We’re leaving.” I said, “Bye.” That was it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:05:34] So what led you to make that rather precipitous decision?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:05:39] Well, because I skied when I was in France, and then Austria, of course. And I got to be a pretty good skier, and I just didn’t want to stop. I knew that I could find a job, which I did finally, and I waited for the next ski season.

 

Mike Monroney [00:06:03] So that’s six months away at this point.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:06:05] Yeah, but I had a horse. I’ll tell you about getting the horse. Did you ever know a place called…? What’s it called? It’s a place where everybody had breakfast in the ’60s.

 

Michelle Bass [00:06:16] The White Kitchen?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:06:18] No, it was another name. Angie ran it. I guess it was the White Kitchen… Anyway…

 

Mike Monroney [00:06:25] Yeah, I’m not familiar with that.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:06:26] Angie ran it, and her husband was a big cowboy. So I went to her husband one day and said, “You know what I really miss? I miss my horse. Can you get me a horse?” And he said, “I happen to be going to Denver for a horse sale tomorrow. What kind of a horse do you want?” I said, “Well, I don’t want to spend more than $100, but I want a nice- looking horse.” And he bought me the prettiest horse.

 

Mike Monroney [00:06:57] For $100?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:06:58] Yes, but of course, he had to put it, tied it up in his mother’s yard, which was right across from… there was no Little Nell then, you know all that… there were just little houses. And his mother lived in one of them, and she said, “Oh, well, before you take your horse…” Oh, we had rented, three of us, the ACES barn before it was an ACES barn, just a barn. And so, I was so excited to get on the horse and go down there. And she said, “Well, you must stop and have a cup of tea with me or a cup of coffee or… what she really meant was a drink, because around the table that she led me to, it was covered with little glasses this big, with, you know, hard liquor in them. So I finally… every time she turned around, I’d take my glass and dump it into somebody else’s glass. Nobody else was there. I finally said, “Thank you so much.

 

You’ve been so helpful, but I can’t wait to get on my horse.” And I didn’t have anything then. I only had the rope around its neck, and everything else was down at the barn. But that was a was a good horse.

 

Mike Monroney [00:08:17] What was the horse’s name?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:08:19] India.

 

Mike Monroney [00:08:19] India. Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:08:21] No. That, the first one was Lady. India was my last horse. And then the next thing that happened was, there were two policemen in town… period. And one of them came to me and said, “I see you have a barn, and you’ve got that beautiful horse. Now we have a person in Glenwood, and the horse died, but the little guy is okay. Can we bring it up here? The foal. You’ll have to hand feed it, you know, milk.” And so they brought the horse up to me, and after I got it used to Lady… I got all those pictures. Where are they? So, Lady was very good to this little foal. Then the next thing that happened was I went down to Gerbazdale. Have you ever been to Gerbazdale?

 

Mike Monroney [00:09:21] Oh, yes.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:09:22] Have you gone there for a birthing?

 

Mike Monroney [00:09:24] No I’ve not. I have seen a horse foaled before, though.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:09:28] No. Well, it used to be just full of babies. And I was down there with Mr. Gerbaz, and he said, “You know, most of the babies that come out are white, but every once in a while, there’s a black one, and the mother will not feed it. Would you take one home and feed it?” And it became like a dog. I went riding, and it followed me. And pretty soon I was having a baby foal and a baby lamb. And… who was it who used to take pictures and…? I can’t think of her name… Mary Hayes. I’m in one of her magazines, or her papers, showed me with them. And the road was dirt, and I had these two little guys following me. It was heaven.

 

Mike Monroney [00:10:28] So you had your own menagerie, basically.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:10:30] I loved it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:10:30] Oh, good.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:10:31] And Evie Yerkes, who used to be at the hospital, one of the number persons in the hospital, she had a horse, so she kept that at the barn down there. So we just had… And you could go all over Red Mountain. There were no houses, there were no roads. There was nothing.

 

Mike Monroney [00:10:50] No fences…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:10:51] No fences. Except up where the… the not the Bayers… who am I thinking of? Paepckes. The Paepckes have a ranch up there. And at one point my father came out to see how I was doing, and I asked Evie if he could borrow her horse. And so we went. I asked… I saw the Paepckes a lot, and at one time after dinner I said to Mr. Paepcke, “Could I

 

bring my father up to your ranch tomorrow? He just wants to ride around on it.” He said, “Oh yeah.” So we did, and the next thing I know, my father is asking him if he’ll sell it to him.

 

Mike Monroney [00:11:30] Oh! The ranch?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:11:32] The ranch.

 

Mike Monroney [00:11:32] Oh my gosh. Not the horse, the ranch!

 

Jackie Wogan [00:11:34] The ranch. But he said, “Young lady, this ranch will never be sold by anybody.” Hasn’t been. The girls own it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:11:44] Yeah. So I want to, I don’t want to get stuck on this, but not everyone… some people thought that that Mr. Paepcke was challenging.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:11:56] I got along with him. I don’t know why. Because, probably because I had so many animals, and he loved little animals. And, you know, he was very nice to me. Only once did he get mad at me.

 

Mike Monroney [00:12:09] And why was that?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:12:10] Because I was taking too much of his time. He said, “You have to get out of here so I can go see my guests” or something like that.

 

Mike Monroney [00:12:21] You’re probably lucky you got as much of his time as you did, because that probably was his most valuable commodity.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:12:27] Yeah. Did I ever tell you the story about Mrs. Paepcke and the birds?

 

Mike Monroney [00:12:34] Tell.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:12:35] Oh my God. No? So, anyway, I had just finished building a house on Lake Avenue.

 

Mike Monroney [00:12:43] So give us a year, approximately, since we’re jumping around.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:12:47] Oh, it was probably in the ’60s.

 

Mike Monroney [00:12:48] Okay.

 

Michelle Bass [00:12:49] Late ’60s, I think maybe early ’70s.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:12:52] Anyway, I had just finished building this house on the lake, and the upper side, where the houses are? About 15 feet below that, there’s a place that’s called “No Man’s Land.” You’re not supposed to, and nobody’s supposed to own it. So I’m getting in my new house, and I see something going on up on “No Man’s Land,” which you’re not supposed to be building on. So I went down there, and I said, “What is going on?” And the guy…

 

Michelle Bass [00:13:25] Was that Hallam Lake?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:13:26] Yeah. And the guy said, “Well, Mrs. Paepcke wants a bird station.” So I called up Pussy and I said, “What are you building? That’s my new house.” And she said, “Oh, we have to have a bird station.” So I called an electrician I knew because I had just finished building a house.

 

Michelle Bass [00:13:50] On Lake Avenue.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:13:51] On Lake Avenue, and I said, “I want the biggest lights you’ve got. I want two of them up on the roof and shine them right on the bird station.” And it happened. And then Pussy called me, and she said, “What have you done? What are you doing with my bird station?” And I said, “Well, how come you have a bird station, and nobody can see the birds? So I put lights up.” That bird station came down like that.

 

Mike Monroney [00:14:18] Wow. So, let’s go back to 1950, and you mentioned that you got a job eventually when you decided to stay. Where was that job?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:14:31] Well, there was a little place called the… Charlie Paterson’s father owned it. I’m trying to think of what it was called. It’s in the West End. It’s off of Hopkins, sort of back. And it’s a place where he gave me a job. He also gave me a room to live in. But I had to do the dishes and clean up things. And, you know, I spent time, and I didn’t mind it. And every time I found a great picture, I’d hang it. I sort of decorated it for him. And that lasted for about nine months, until the snow started. And then I went back to the Jerome, and Mr. Bishop, who was the manager of the Jerome, he knew I was coming back.

 

Mike Monroney [00:15:20] Is that the same Bishop as Beck and Bishop’s grocery store?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:15:23] No, it is not.

 

Mike Monroney [00:15:23] Different Bishops, okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:15:25] And so Mr. Bishop said, “Well, now, in this hotel, we charge like they do in Europe. Breakfast, lunch and dinner and a place to sleep all hooked together. It’s called “American Plan.” And I want you to take the middle part of it. I want you to go up after you’ve had your breakfast. You take your skis up, and go to the Sundeck and ski, and then go in and do the lunch part, which was perfect. And absolutely, I was so amazed that I got that job. So I really learned to ski then. Sandy and Thelma Sabbatini. Did you ever hear that name?

 

Mike Monroney [00:16:11] Sure. Sabbatini Sports.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:16:13] Well, they took me over. One would come up and get me after work, which only lasted an hour and a half, and took me out to teach me to ski. It was either Sandy or Thelma. That’s how I learned to ski.

 

Mike Monroney [00:16:27] Wow. It wasn’t really official lessons. It was just skiing with somebody who was good.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:16:31] Skiing with them because they were so much fun.

 

Mike Monroney [00:16:35] Right. Tell us about the equipment then. What were your skis and boots like?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:16:40] Well, the ones that I came to Aspen with were old boots of Mother’s, cross-country boots. But I had some better stuff that I got when I was in France, so I just used that.

 

Mike Monroney [00:16:56] Okay. So you… I believe at one point you were working in the bar at the Hotel Jerome as well? As well as the ski job? Did you work in the bar at the Hotel Jerome?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:17:10] No. Never did.

 

Michelle Bass [00:17:14] Well, is there a story behind that? They wanted you to serve drinks, but you… how old were you?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:17:22] 19.

 

Michelle Bass [00:17:24] Did you get in trouble for your…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:17:25] I did. Well, there was a guy that came to town who had to do with, you know, time of people, you know, whether they’re old enough to be serving liquor.

 

Mike Monroney [00:17:41] Oh, right. Like, like someone with a…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:17:43] I had a fake ID.

 

Mike Monroney [00:17:44] Oh, you did! Where’d you get that?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:17:46] Made it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:17:47] You made it yourself.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:17:49] I had a fake ID, and I should never have… he should have told me, Mr. Bishop should have told me that he was coming because I would have disappeared. But I just thought it was some regular guy and went up to see if I could help him. And he said “No, but let me see your license.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Because you’re serving liquor.” And I said, “What’s the matter with that?” And he said, “Well, you have to be a certain age to do that. Now let me see your license.” So I had to give it to him. He said, “That is the poorest job I’ve ever seen of anything.” And he said, “I want to see your actual license now, because you’ve probably got that all messed up.” And I did. I scratched out with blackout. And so he said, “Well, I’m sorry, but you can’t work here.” So Mr. Bishop took me down to Basalt. There was a couple that owned that little hotel that used to be down there.

 

Mike Monroney [00:18:52] The Frying Pan Inn?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:18:54] Mmhm, and I got to work there. They gave me a place to live, and I got… it was in the summer now.

 

Mike Monroney [00:19:01] Okay. Because you wouldn’t be down there in the winter because you’d be too far from skiing.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:19:06] No. It was in the summer, and I went and bought a little car in Glenwood, a little Jeep, and I went up to Aspen every day after I’d served breakfast, and I went to the music. I was on the board eventually, and then I was on the board of… what was the other board I was on? What? Oh, the Institute, yeah. Ideas Festival. And that used to be on the grass outside of the hotel.

 

Michelle Bass [00:19:46] Jerome.

 

Jackie Wogan Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:19:47] So how did your parents feel about you staying in Aspen all this time?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:19:52] Well, they came out. My father was a big… he loved traveling, and my mother hated it. But anyway, I said to Daddy, “Now, when you get towards Aspen, do not go over the pass. Do not go over Independence Pass. It’ll…” My mother would just die of… you know, something. But he did. And Mother, I was waiting for them at the Jerome, and Mother walked, she could hardly walk. She could hardly walk; she was so upset and scared.

 

Mike Monroney [00:20:29] Oh, from the road?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:20:30] Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:20:32] They made it.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:20:33] They made it. Daddy would try anything. Mike Monroney [00:20:37] Did he ski with you when he came to visit? Jackie Wogan [00:20:40] Yeah. He was a good skier.

Mike Monroney [00:20:43] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:20:44] He did a funny thing, though. When I started skiing, I couldn’t afford to buy some skis. So he went to one of these resale places and got a pair of white skis that used to belong to, you know, the…

 

Michelle Bass [00:21:00] 10th Mountain.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:21:00] 10th Mountain.

 

Mike Monroney [00:21:01] 10th Mountain. Soldiers.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:21:02] So he took them home, and he scraped them with a… I’ve forgotten what it’s called. You scrape it, and all the top comes off. And then he varnished them. But they were still too long, so he cut them off. They were the hardest skis I’ve ever skied on.

 

Mike Monroney [00:21:22] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:21:23] And finally… who was it that just practically gave me a pair of skis? Sandy Sabbatini. He said, “You’re never going to be able to learn to ski on these. They just aren’t right.” And gave me an old pair of skis.

 

Mike Monroney [00:21:43] Now, I’ve heard a story that you got to live in a log cabin for a while on Aspen Mountain? With some friends? Is that true?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:21:53] No. I never lived in a log cabin.

 

Mike Monroney [00:21:55] Okay. But you worked up at the Sundeck?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:21:59] Yeah. But the Sundeck was being occupied by the one family that has Heidi.

 

Mike Monroney [00:22:07] Okay. Right. And she would ski down to go to school every day.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:22:11] Yes. And then there was another family that had occupied the cabin. I never did occupy the cabin.

 

Mike Monroney [00:22:18] Oh. Got it. Okay. That was at the top, understood. Tell us about forerunning the FIS ski race.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:22:27] Oh, my God. I was never so frightened in my life. But everybody, like Sandy and Thelma, were all standing around and making sure that I had my skis waxed and then gave me enough…they were so good to me. I knew I had to be very good, and I was. So, I made it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:22:54] Was it like the downhill race? I mean, a downhill course? Not much turning?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:22:58] Not much turning.

 

Mike Monroney [00:22:59] So you just went as fast as you could?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:00] Yeah, I did.

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:01] Wow. That’s impressive.

 

Michelle Bass [00:23:03] And what was your time? Did you beat the men’s time?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:08] No, I was as fast as the men’s time.

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:12] Wow.

 

Michelle Bass [00:23:13] And you got a gold pin?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:14] Yeah.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:16] It’s over here somewhere.

 

Michelle Bass [00:23:18] Do you want photos?

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:21] No, we’ll get them later. And then we can cut them in if we want to. That’s easier than trying to hold them up now. Tell us about some of your other jobs. I think at one point, and just a few minutes ago, we ran into Dave Walbert, who used to own the Red Onion many, many years ago.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:41] But he didn’t own it when I was there.

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:42] No, he was after you.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:44] Yeah. I’m trying to think of the person that owned it when I first started because it’s changed hands twice.

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:51] Right. Was it Werner Kuster?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:54] Werner Kuster.

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:55] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:56] I went to his service, by the way.

 

Mike Monroney [00:23:57] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:23:59] But the man before Werner Kuster was John something. I can’t think of his name.

 

Mike Monroney [00:24:05] John Sibler…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:24:07] Stidler. Yeah, he owned it. {The name is actually John Sihler.}

 

Mike Monroney [00:24:11] He took it over, I think, after Johnny got called back into the service. Johnny Litchfield got called back in the service.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:24:17] Yeah. But, you know, it was a wonderful place. You remember it. You walked in and there was the bar, and then you walk in a little further and that was the dining area. And our place, where we went when I was doing the drums and, you know, was up here, and Louise Duncan had her piano up there. And when Oscar Peterson came that weekend, those two huge people are sitting on one tiny little… Yeah, it was amazing. But the music was just… I’ve always loved music anyway, so…

 

Mike Monroney [00:24:53] And I believe that in 1952, that was the winter that Billie Holiday came and sang. I think it was for Wintersköl.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:02] Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:02] Did you get to hear any of that when she was there?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:04] No, I didn’t.

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:04] Oh, too bad. But it was quite the jazz scene there for a while.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:08] Oh yeah, it was.

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:09] And at the same time, I remember, they were doing something like 700 dinners a day, lunches and dinners a day.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:15] Not in the Red Onion…

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:17] In the Red Onion.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:17] The old Red Onion?

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:18] The old Red Onion. They were that busy.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:20] Oh my God, where did they put everybody?

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:20] Well, not all at once, with all the turning of the tables over the course of the day, they would serve that many people. Pretty remarkable.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:30] You know, I’ll have to… no, I’m not going to tell that story.

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:33] Go ahead.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:33] No, it’s not a nice story.

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:35] All right.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:36] No, it’s about my mother and Louise Duncan. That was not good.

 

Mike Monroney [00:25:44] So somewhere along the way, and you can fill out both these stories, not only did you get the chance to travel extensively, but you got involved in real estate.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:25:55] I got involved in real estate? Oh, big time.

 

Mike Monroney [00:26:00] How did that happen?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:26:01] Well, I had to support three…the fourth one wasn’t born yet…three children.

 

Mike Monroney [00:26:08] Well, let’s back up then a little bit and talk about your family first, and your marriage and your kids.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:26:12] Well, my first husband was not very successful with me and the kids. At first he was, but he was always drunk. And so I finally got a divorce, but then I had to figure out how to raise them, which wasn’t very hard. That’s when I started in the real estate business.

 

Mike Monroney [00:26:33] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:26:36] And if you work hard, you can make money in the real estate business. I don’t know about anymore. It’s so expensive now.

 

Mike Monroney [00:26:42] Also, an awful lot of real estate agents today. That might be part of it too.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:26:45] Oh, there are so many, my daughter included. Wendy is in it. But, you know, it was a fun thing in the old days. Gosh, look at that picture of Bingo going up the…

 

Mike Monroney [00:26:58] Yes! She’s looking at a Miggs Durrance photo on the wall opposite her. A collection of Miggs’ photographs, and Bingo’s in the upper left-hand corner.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:27:08] Anyway, it changed. The real estate business changed. So when I got to be 80, I decided, I’ve taught Wendy everything she needs to know. And I moved to Basalt.

 

Michelle Bass [00:27:30] How many years, Jackie, were you an active broker in Aspen?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:27:34] Probably about 35. Maybe a little longer.

 

Mike Monroney [00:27:41] Tell us about some of the significant properties that you developed in town.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:27:46] Not developed. [00:27:48] But that you purchased and… Jackie Wogan [00:27:50] Purchased.

Mike Monroney [00:27:50] Yeah.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:27:51] Oh, gosh. There’s so many of them.

 

Mike Monroney [00:27:55] What are some of the…?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:27:56] Lake Avenue, all of Lake Avenue, which was the biggest. Those things are now selling for… well, you know the one across the street that looks like… on Lake Avenue… all the houses are here, and then there’s a piece of land that’s like an ironing board, and somebody’s built a HUGE house over there.

 

Mike Monroney [00:28:21] Yes.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:28:21] And it used to be where my teacher, my teacher that taught me to paint used to live there. And her husband was an artist. And that house is now on the market. I think it’s like 50 million.

 

Mike Monroney [00:28:38] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:28:39] I can’t believe the Lake Avenue houses are all just skyrocketing.

 

Mike Monroney [00:28:43] Well, it’s such a unique piece of property because it’s up on that bluff above the lake and the wilderness preserve, and there’s no backyard neighbors, so…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:28:51] You know what I had to do every once in a while, every spring? You know, in the spring, the trees start to grow, and I didn’t want them to get too high because I wanted a view. So I made up a mixture of… I’ve forgotten what it was, but some kind of something to put on to kill weeds. And I mixed that with something like, something you buy at the store that’s used to clean your clothes or something. And I would mix it all up in a barrel, and I climbed down the whole steep place and put it around the, I did this in the fall, put it around the roots, you know, where the trees are coming up, and it did a really good job in clearing it out.

 

Mike Monroney [00:29:44] And keeping that viewpoint intact. So, you actually lived in one of those homes then?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:29:51] I lived in a lot of them.

 

Mike Monroney [00:29:52] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:29:54] And Henry Petersen owned one of them for a while. His was the brick one.

 

Mike Monroney [00:30:00] Okay.

 

Michelle Bass [00:30:02] But how many lots did you have on Lake Avenue, Jackie, in the early ’70s?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:30:09] How many did I have?

 

Mike Monroney [00:30:10] How many lots?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:30:12] No, I had… you mean that I lived in or that I sold?

 

Mike Monroney [00:30:15] No, no. How many of those lots did you buy, along Lake Avenue?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:30:17] Seven.

 

Mike Monroney [00:30:18] Seven. Okay…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:30:19] That was when… those were all together. They belonged to the…

 

Michelle Bass [00:30:25] Judge Shaw?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:30:26] Judge Shaw and his wife, and when they died, they left those lots to their grandson, whose name was Toby. So I’m walking around out there, and Toby came up… no, somebody came up to me and said, “Do you know who’s going to buy those lots? They’re on the market.” So I went out and knocked on the door and I said, “Toby, are you putting those lots on the market?” He said, “Yeah, I’ve already got an offer.” I said, “Did you take it? Did you… have you accepted the offer?” He said, “No.” I said, “How much do you want for them?” And he told me, and I said, “I’ll buy them all, and I’ll buy them right now.”

 

Mike Monroney [00:31:13] That was pretty smart.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:31:14] A lot of very bad… Yeah, and then I hired Gideon Kaufman to get me through the City, you know, which is hard. And finally, he said, “I don’t know what Stacy Standley’s so upset about.” I said, “I know. “He made the offer, and…”

 

Mike Monroney [00:31:31] Oh. And was that while he was mayor? Or before he was mayor?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:31:36] No, I think it was before he was mayor.

 

Mike Monroney [00:31:38] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:31:39] But he was pretty mad at me for getting those.

 

Michelle Bass [00:31:44] Denying permits and…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:31:46] Seven lots. Anyway…

 

Mike Monroney [00:31:51] Let’s talk about some of the people that you’ve known in Aspen during the time you lived here. I know you learned to fly, is that correct?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:31:58] I did.

 

Mike Monroney [00:31:59] And among some of the more well-known pilots in town were the Pfisters, correct?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:32:06] I want to tell you a very funny story about…

 

Mike Monroney [00:32:07] Tell us about the Pfisters.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:32:08] The Pfisters were really fun. Really both good pilots, and Betty had a… not just an airplane… She had, what do I want to say? Helicopter.

 

Mike Monroney [00:32:20] Helicopter.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:32:21] And we went up in that all the time, and she’d look down and she’d say, “Jackie, see that rock? Now I’m going to land right on it.” I mean, I learned more flying with her than anybody. And then we were all invited to a wedding… have I told you that story? We were all invited to a wedding out in California, and…

 

Michelle Bass [00:32:48] Whose wedding. Jackie, do you remember? Whose wedding?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:32:51] Yes. Pat Millington.

 

Mike Monroney [00:32:53] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:32:53] You remember her? She had a very rich uncle who used to own Snowmass. Yeah. But anyway, she was getting married, so there was myself, and let’s see,

 

Betty and Art. And then there was another couple that I can’t think of their names, but they were there also, friends.

 

Michelle Bass [00:33:25] The wedding was where?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:33:27] The wedding was in California. So we all go to California, and we party up a storm. And on Sunday, we’re still partying, she’s now married, the girl that was getting married, and nobody remembered that it’s an hour difference between California and Aspen. So we get into the airplane, we start back, and Art, all of a sudden, said, “Oh my God, we forgot about the hour change.” He said, “But don’t… no fear, I will buzz the town.” He said, “I’ve done this before. I will buzz the town. There’s going to be a light on the little telephone booth that’s there. Then we buzz the town, and there were two people waiting because I called, and they’re going to come out and shine the lights on the runway.”

 

Michelle Bass [00:34:24] The police cars… headlights. So you could land?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:34:28] Yeah. Isn’t that amazing?

 

Mike Monroney [00:34:31] That’s amazing. Jackie Wogan [00:34:32] Those two big pilots… Mike Monroney [00:34:35] And they forgot.

Jackie Wogan [00:34:35] …and they forgot.

 

Mike Monroney [00:34:37] I remember Ruth Brown telling me a story about her dad. And evidently, Darcy, you know, when they had the ranch down in El Jebel, would get home late and would buzz the house.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:34:51] Oh, and then somebody would…

 

Mike Monroney [00:34:52] And then Ruth would drive the station wagon out and shine the lights so that he could land in the field. So, maybe that was standard operating procedure back in those days.

 

Michelle Bass [00:35:00] Well, they forgot the time and the darkness, so…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:35:03] I know.

 

Mike Monroney [00:35:06] And evidently you got to go to…, tell us about Art’s 70th birthday. Art Pfister’s 70th birthday.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:35:14] Oh, God. He was in… we all went to Alaska. It was up there. And I went up with John Denver and a few others.

 

Mike Monroney [00:35:22] You flew in a plane with John Denver? Did he fly?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:35:24] Yeah. He had a guy there, too, but he flew. And then, we got up there and we all hid so that they wouldn’t know we were there. And then at a certain time, we all went

 

into a place where there was… it was a place where they keep helicopters, big room. And we all had champagne and all that, you know, like this. And singing Happy Birthday to Art.

 

Michelle Bass [00:35:56] Surprise.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:35:57] Yeah. Surprise. Total surprise. Then we get into a helicopter, and we go up to this restaurant that’s up on a huge hill in back of where we were. And John Denver played all night. And the next day, the poor pilot of the plane said, “I’ve never spent a worse night. We flew so low because all of you guys wanted to see animals. I had to scrape off the birds’, you know, got all hard, and we need to have it clean. Clean, clean, clean. Anyway…

 

Michelle Bass [00:36:37] To see out of the helicopter?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:36:39] What? No, not… because it makes it heavy. See, if there’s too much mud or something…

 

Mike Monroney [00:36:47] Oh, okay. That makes sense.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:36:50] So he spent all night cleaning the airplane.

 

Mike Monroney [00:36:52] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:36:55] You know, I’ve got two girls that both worked for John Denver. Judy worked for him. And Susie was his secretary.

 

Mike Monroney [00:37:08] Okay. It was a sad day for all of us when he passed away. I think it was 1997, right?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:37:17] I have no idea.

 

Mike Monroney [00:37:17] I think it was ’97 when he crashed that plane in Monterey.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:37:21] Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:37:26] So you mentioned a story that I’d love you to tell us. This was early in your time in Aspen, and you were teaching skiing. And this story involved Stein Eriksen. Can you tell me that story? About a day that you wanted to go skiing and…?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:37:43] Oh, no. We were hiding. We were hiding. Well, that’s the day that I told you there was 19 inches of snow.

 

Mike Monroney [00:37:48] Right. So, but I want you to tell it for the tape too.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:37:53] So I said…

 

Michelle Bass [00:37:54] Well, back up. What were you doing up at Highlands with Stein Eriksen?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:37:58] Teaching, a ski instructor.

 

Mike Monroney [00:38:00] And he was the head of the ski school.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:38:02] Yeah. But when I saw those 19 inches of snow, I said to Anna Lisa, who was also Norwegian, and I said, “Let’s go hide in the ladies’ room, so we don’t have to teach today. It’s going to be just fabulous.” So we hid in the ladies’ room. The next thing I know, wonk! The door, I thought I was going to come off the hinges. “You’re both fired.”

 

Mike Monroney [00:38:30] How did he know you were in there?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:38:32] Well, because we didn’t show up.

 

Mike Monroney [00:38:34] Oh. Sounds like maybe this wasn’t the first time you’d hidden in the ladies’ room then.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:38:38] Anyway, he left, and I said to Anna Lisa, “Let’s just go buy some tickets. I’ll help you buy yours, and we’ll go ski all day,” which we did. And about five days later, I get a call from Stein. “I am so mad at you,” he said. “There’s a family here that you’ve been teaching for five years, and they won’t go with anybody else. Would you come back?” I said, “Thank you, I will.”

 

Mike Monroney [00:39:13] And it wasn’t just for that one trip, right? You got to stay working.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:39:16] No, I stayed working.

 

Mike Monroney [00:39:17] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:39:19] It was a fun group, I’ll tell you. Those Norwegians. They can sure…

 

Mike Monroney [00:39:25] Did you ever get to just go skiing with Stein for fun?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:39:29] Sure. All the time.

 

Mike Monroney [00:39:30] Oh, good.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:39:33] I wasn’t very good at the way he skis. Sometimes… No, there were only people, three people that could ski like he did.

 

Mike Monroney [00:39:40] Okay. So tell us about when, how you learned to ski powder so well.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:39:45] Dick Durrance. Well, one winter, they opened up… you could go up to the top of the mountain, and then you would get into a cat and ski like 3 or 4 hours, and then they’d serve lunch up there and then you’d go ski some more. Anyway, it was snowing, and it was… Dick Durrance was on the plane, and I said, “Oh my God, I’m never going to be able to figure this out when it’s snowing.” And he said, “You know what, Jackie? I have danced with you a lot, and you are a really good dancer. Now, what you do is when you get out of the cat, you start down the mountain, and you pretend you’re dancing. You’re… like this. And it worked!

 

Mike Monroney [00:40:36] It worked. Wow. He was… he was probably at one point the best skier in America.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:40:43] Yep. And a nice guy. Such a nice guy. And he loved to dance.

 

Mike Monroney [00:40:53] Now, at one point in 1951, you were on Lift Two, and it broke down. How did you get off?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:41:03] Oh, that was the scariest thing. It did break down. And they had a whole bunch of people working on the mountain that got below us, and I just couldn’t figure out how… it was so far down… do you remember?

 

Mike Monroney [00:41:17] I never got to ride Lift Two. I came after it.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:41:19] Oh my God. It was like two stories. And I kept looking at it and looking at it, and finally the patrolmen that were down there said, “Throw your skis to us.” I mean, “Throw your poles to us, and then throw your skis to us. And now we’re going to make little piles of snow for you and aim for it.”

 

Mike Monroney [00:41:42] How do you aim for it? {laughter}

 

Jackie Wogan [00:41:45] So we had to jump off.

 

Mike Monroney [00:41:47] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:41:48] But I could never have done it with skis on.

 

Mike Monroney [00:41:51] No.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:41:52] I was so afraid of breaking something.

 

Mike Monroney [00:41:54] Yeah, well, and you didn’t get hurt. That’s great.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:41:57] No, I didn’t get hurt.

 

Mike Monroney [00:41:58] So you rode, back in the days when Lift One, which was single chairs, which is very different from today. And they had provided it with sort of some canvas covering, but that was a long, slow lift. How did you stay warm in those days?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:42:15] Well, you know what? You were allowed to… a lot of people had furry coats, including myself, and you wear your coat up there, and you take it off, put it on the chair, and it ends back up where you can find it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:42:28] Okay, so they intended… would the chair beat you down or did you have to wait for it? It probably would depend.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:42:36] I think probably we waited for it. But anyway, one night we all decided that we’re going to take our skis off, and we’re going to line them all up like this. And whoever has the closest ones to the lift gets to go first, and it goes on like that. Well, somebody thought it would be very funny to mix all those skis up. So we go to put our skis on, and they’re all one big jumble. The patrolman, I’m sure did it, you know.

 

Mike Monroney [00:43:10] And didn’t… I heard something about how, in the early days, because there would be such a long line in the morning to go up Lift One that… did people leave their skis to save their place?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:43:21] That’s what I’m talking about.

 

Mike Monroney [00:43:22] That’s what you’re talking about right now. Okay, now I understand.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:43:24] We were leaving our skis to save our space.

 

Mike Monroney [00:43:28] Got it.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:43:28] But somebody went and just mashed them all together, and that was the end of that.

 

Mike Monroney [00:43:35] What was…? So you skied in Aspen a long time, and things changed a lot, in terms of, you’ve got to ride up on the lifts and talk to people on the way and… What was it like, that ride up Lift One and then Lift Two when you were all by yourself? What did you do to entertain yourself on the way up the lift? Did you just, what wait? Or did you sing songs?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:43:58] Well, it’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful that I always took pictures. I had a little tiny camera. Took pictures.

 

Mike Monroney [00:44:10] Yeah, it’s… skiing’s changed a lot. From 45 minutes and all by yourself to 15 minutes and six people to talk to in the gondola.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:44:20] It was nice, actually.

 

Mike Monroney [00:44:22] I think it would be too. But I think a lot of people today would not enjoy that solitary experience.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:44:27] Well. I enjoy it, just like I enjoy riding my horse by myself.

 

Mike Monroney [00:44:31] I do too. So, any other friends you could think of? You talked a little bit about the Paepckes. Did you know the Bayers? Did you know Joella and Herbert?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:44:44] I’ll tell you a very funny story about the Bayers. Joella Bayer and her sister was…

 

Mike Monroney [00:44:51] Fabi. {pause} Fabi.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:44:54] Fabi Benedict. So Fabi Benedict, who loved to play tricks. She was a big trick player. It was Christmas time, and she bought these really horrendous Christmas cards that had the red stuff all over it, you know? She glued them all, and made all these Christmas cards, and then sent them out to all of the Bayers’ friends and signed them Joey and… you know his…. I’ve forgotten his name… Herbert.

 

Mike Monroney [00:45:32] Herbert? Joey and Herbert.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:45:34] “Harry Christmas, Herbie and Joey.” {laughter} And one time, what she did… Fabi, she was a great friend. We had so much fun together. There was a guy that built a house. You know where Barnard Park is?

 

Mike Monroney [00:45:55] Yeah.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:45:55] Well, they built a house back in there somewhere, and he was so happy about it. And Fabi said, “We’ve now… they’re having a party… we’ve got to get there before the party and turn all the pictures upside down, which we did.

 

Mike Monroney [00:46:11] Oh, wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:46:13] Fabi was a funny, funny lady.

 

Mike Monroney [00:46:16] Did you enjoy her husband Fritz also?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:46:19] Oh, yeah. We had a really good time. I lived in the good times.

 

Mike Monroney [00:46:26] Yes you did. I’m sure most people are jealous that you got to spend so much time here. Now, I know that you’ve traveled all over the world. And what time in your life were you doing most of that travel?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:46:47] Probably after I got divorced.

 

Mike Monroney [00:46:49] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:46:50] I went traveling. So that was like… I had to be in my 70s. 65…

 

Mike Monroney [00:46:59] Oh, okay. So not, you know, I mean, relatively recently in your life, not your early life, but as an adult, when you could actually appreciate what you were getting to see.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:47:11] Oh, I loved it. I traveled a lot.

 

Mike Monroney [00:47:13] Tell us about where you went and what your favorite places were.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:47:16] Well, I spent a lot of time on a bike in …uh, shoot, my memory….

 

Michelle Bass [00:47:28] Vietnam.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:47:30] Vietnam.

 

Mike Monroney [00:47:31] You rode your bike in Vietnam. Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:47:32] I did. Vietnam, and I rode my bike in Italy with a group, you know?

 

Mike Monroney [00:47:40] Okay. And then… one of your hobbies was continuing to take photographs, which we know you like to do, right?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:47:47] Lots of photographs.

 

Mike Monroney [00:47:48] Do you still have those photographs?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:47:49] Yeah. Yep. I have so many albums full of those photographs.

 

Michelle Bass [00:47:58] Tell us some of the places you visited, Jackie.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:48:03] I loved, um…oh…

 

Mike Monroney [00:48:08] Africa? Jackie Wogan [00:48:10] No. Where’s…? Mike Monroney Himalayas?

Jackie Wogan [00:48:14] No, I’m trying to think…

 

Michelle Bass [00:48:16] China. Jackie Wogan [00:48:17] What? Michelle Bass [00:48:18] China.

Jackie Wogan [00:48:19] Oh, yeah. Love China.

 

Michelle Bass [00:48:20] Belgium. Bhutan.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:48:21] Oh, Bhutan was my favorite.

 

Michelle Bass [00:48:23] In the Himalayas.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:48:25] In Bhutan, I got to know… well, the whole group… it’s very high and most of the people had to go home. They couldn’t take it.

 

Mike Monroney [00:48:33] Couldn’t handle the altitude, but you were used to it.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:48:35] So I said to my guide… now I have a guide all to myself who was really nice. I still contact him. And I said, “Would you ask the king…,” Bhutan has a king, and that particular king had eight wives because they all were sisters. Anyway, you had to ask him if you wanted to fish in his rivers. So I asked my guide to please set that up. And he did. Well, he was a very handsome man. He had ten wives, all sisters.

 

Mike Monroney [00:49:18] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:49:19] But very fascinating. It was so much fun. And he went with me when we went fishing.

 

Michelle Bass [00:49:25] So you got to meet him?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:49:27] Oh, yeah. And then we had tea and then and he finally came to me, and he said, “You know, what in the world are you giving all my children? You know, you’re not supposed to be giving them candy and stuff.” I said, “I’m not.” I said, “Here.” And I showed him what I’d been giving them. I went into Carl’s Pharmacy, and I took pictures of winter Aspen and summer Aspen, and then I made them this big. I must have made 200 of them. And they’re always pulling on your clothes, at a certain age, you know, because they want candy. And I would take out a picture like this, and I’d say, “This is my place where I live,” you know, and there would be mountains, and the king was so enchanted with this whole thing, he started doing it, making pictures for the children. And then he asked me if I’d teach them at one point. So I spent an extra two weeks over there teaching English. You know I love Bhutan. I’d be scared to go back. I just think it would be ruined for me.

 

Mike Monroney [00:50:49] We have a mutual friend that went there fairly recently. Jane Click.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:50:52] Oh, really?

 

Mike Monroney [00:50:54] Jane went there fairly recently. Yes.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:50:55] Well, if you’ve never been there before, you wouldn’t know the difference. But it was so unique when I went.

 

Mike Monroney [00:51:05] So tell us about… I know that you got involved in interior design, and you were friends, I believe, with Harry Weese?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:51:13] No. I worked with Harry.

 

Mike Monroney [00:51:15] You worked with Harry. So tell us about what drove you to learn interior design and get a degree and…

 

Jackie Wogan [00:51:23] Well, because it’s… you can make a lot of money that way.

 

Mike Monroney [00:51:26] {laughter} That’s always a good reason.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:51:28] No, I liked doing it. Now my daughter is doing it. Jennifer is doing it. But I loved doing it. I went all over. All the hotels that Harry did. The hotels are the easiest because you do them in bunches, you know? So many floors of that, so many floors of that. But private homes are a lot harder. But I had a good time doing homes for a long time.

 

Mike Monroney [00:51:59] And you got to go to Copenhagen, right?

 

Mike Monroney [00:52:01] Yes.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:52:02] And did some work there?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:52:05] The Copenhagen… they were the people…. he was the… what do I want to say?

 

Mike Monroney [00:52:11] Keith Brown.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:52:12] Keith Brown, he was the…what do you call it?

 

Mike Monroney [00:52:18] Ambassador.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:52:19] Ambassador. And they were very close friends of mine. And so I spent a lot of time over there, first painting and getting stuff done. And then Carol would say, “Okay, let’s take three days off and go over to so and so”…. another country, because we could go anywhere because he was an ambassador.

 

Mike Monroney [00:52:47] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:52:47] Yeah. You know, a very funny thing just happened to me. I was having my toenails done and my nails from the guy down here, and this man walked in to have his pedicure done, and I thought, “God, that man looks so familiar. Why does he look so familiar?” Very handsome. Really handsome. And I got through before he did, but I went up to him and I said, “Have I ever met you before? He said, “Have you been with the Browns in…?” Where?

What’s the word? I said I just was there.

 

Michelle Bass Copenhagen

 

Jackie Wogan [00:53:39] Copenhagen. He said, “Well, I used to be the person in Copenhagen. And you went with them?” I said, “Yes.” Isn’t that funny? And in a little old place where you’re having your nails done, to meet somebody like that.

 

Mike Monroney [00:53:58] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:53:59] He gave me his card and said, “If you ever want to come back over…”

 

Mike Monroney [00:54:05] So tell us… you were on the board of the Music Festival. Tell us what that was like. And when you did that.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:54:12] Oh, that was a long, long time ago. And in the middle of all of that, there was a big fight. Did you remember that?

 

Mike Monroney [00:54:17] Yes.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:54:19] Because the musicians wanted to be their own part. They didn’t want to be… they wanted to be…

 

Mike Monroney [00:54:31] Independent.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:54:31] Yes.

 

Mike Monroney [00:54:32] Of the Institute.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:54:33] Yeah. And so there was a big fight at one of the meetings. I mean, people were walking out. I remember Carol Ann just stomped out, and Fritz was the head then of that particular time. And Fritz came to me and said, “Jackie, please don’t leave.” I said, “I’m not going to leave you. I wouldn’t leave you for anything.” And so we put it back together. The musicians were fighting over the fact that they were separated. Musicians were here, and the people who were running it were here. But then it all…

 

Mike Monroney [00:55:17] All worked out.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:55:17] …worked out.

 

Mike Monroney [00:55:20] And I’m trying to think what the… Can you remember…? Oh, I was going to ask you about billboards and Bugsy Barnard.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:55:30] About what?

 

Mike Monroney [00:55:31] Billboards and Bugsy Barnard.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:55:33] Oh. Bugsy Barnard. You know, he was the only doctor here too. But he put me on everything because he thought I could do things, you know? And anyway, he said, “Now it’s time to go down. We’ve advertised that they have to take the billboards down between Aspen and Carbondale. And they’re not down.” So Bugsy called me, and he said, “We’ve got a group together. We’ve got trucks, we’ve got saws, and come with us. Be in charge.” I said, “I don’t want to be in charge, but I’ll come with you.” And we did. We cut them down. They had electric… they had motorized saws.

 

Mike Monroney [00:56:26] Like chainsaws.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:56:27] But they were so ugly. Those signs were so big.

 

Mike Monroney [00:56:30] Yes. Well, that… you know, Bugsy is pretty well known for that, but I didn’t know that you were there and part of that as well. Those were exciting times.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:56:38] Well, Bugsy put me on lots of things because he just thought I was good at it, I guess. Anyway…

 

Mike Monroney [00:56:46] And that was… you were actually a member of the Planning and Zoning Commission at that time, right? Because you guys could have gotten into some serious trouble along the way there, you know, cutting signs down. I mean, I think most people probably approved.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:57:00] Everybody wanted it down. We sent out lots of letters first, you know…

 

Mike Monroney [00:57:06] Asking people to take them down.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:57:09] No, asking if it’s okay if we take them down.

 

Mike Monroney [00:57:12] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:57:16] Imagine Aspen and, between Aspen and Glenwood, all these huge billboards.

 

Mike Monroney [00:57:23] It’s one of the things that makes the Valley special now is we don’t have that. We don’t have much signage, although I am not sure I would mind having some of those old neon signs because that’s considered art now.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:57:36] Oh, they are.

 

Mike Monroney [00:57:37] …but now it’s art.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:57:38] Yeah, now it’s art. Well, the next time you do a bar, if you ever do one, use those.

 

Mike Monroney [00:57:46] Yeah. If you had to pick one way in which Aspen has changed the most over the years, what do you think it would be? Both a good way and a bad way. Well, how is Aspen better or is it? What do you like about Aspen today?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:58:04] Well, I don’t like Aspen today. I moved away. To Basalt.

 

Mike Monroney [00:58:09] You moved to Basalt.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:58:10] Because it is so hard for somebody my age. Thank God I have a

placard that says I can park somewhere. You can’t park. It’s hard to walk on all those cobbles for older people. It’s a hard place to live in for my age. But of course, not everybody is my age, so…

 

Michelle Bass [00:58:33] How old are you today, Jackie?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:58:37] I am 89.

 

Mike Monroney [00:58:40] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:58:42] So it’s hard to walk around Aspen.

 

Mike Monroney [00:58:46] 89 and three months, right? July, August, September. June 4th.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:58:51] Yeah. So anyway, the…. but, you know, the places that have all the rough walking? The malls?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:59:07] Yes. The pedestrian malls.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:59:09] That was one of Bugsy’s and my biggest deals. The malls. And we got those bricks from…

 

Mike Monroney [00:59:20] Saint Louis.

 

Mike Monroney [00:59:20] Saint Louis. Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [00:59:22] Do you remember how many?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:59:23] No I can’t…

 

Mike Monroney [00:59:24] Half a million bricks. From Laclede’s Landing in Saint Louis.

 

Jackie Wogan [00:59:29] Yeah. Anyway, I’m very happy I was in Aspen, and I had a very good time there, but I can’t ski anymore, I can’t ride a bike anymore, I don’t have a horse anymore. I mean, you know. So I’m painting.

 

Mike Monroney [00:59:48] Tell us about your painting. Because we have one here, and it’s been in the frame all this time, just to your left. Are those recent works that you’ve done?

 

Jackie Wogan [00:59:57] I started painting about… when I was 80, when I moved down to Basalt. Because I have sisters and relatives that are artists, and I thought, “I’m going to try it out,” and I love it.

 

Mike Monroney [01:00:17] I love the fox… and an owl. Herbert Bayer liked to sketch and paint owls. Do you remember that?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:00:27] I’ve got lots of owls.

 

Mike Monroney [01:00:29] There’s the story of Gary Cooper…

 

Jackie Wogan [01:00:31] I give them away.

 

Mike Monroney [01:00:32] Oh, yeah?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:00:32] People come up and have dinner or something, and I’ll say, “Go, pick a painting out.” It’s fun.

 

Mike Monroney [01:00:42] I bet it is. Now I want you to….. you live in Basalt now, and you have

for a while. Is it… ? What about Basalt makes it a good place for you right now? What drew you to

Basalt? I mean, it’s close to here, but it is different.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:03] It is different. Well, I like Basalt. It’s got good restaurants.

 

Mike Monroney [01:01:09] Yes, it does.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:11] And it’s close to go up to… you know, when you go… I’ve forgotten

what it’s called now…

 

Mike Monroney [01:01:20] The Frying Pan Road or… ?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:21] No, go way up to the… where the…

 

Michelle Bass [01:01:25] Willits? To the market?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:28] No, you go way far…

 

Mike Monroney [01:01:31] Ruedi Reservoir?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:31] Yes. It’s fun to go up there.

 

Mike Monroney [01:01:35] It is. I bet you used to ride your bike up there.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:37] I did. And I like that area.

 

Mike Monroney [01:01:42] Well, you even know what it was like before they built the dam and filled the lake?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:01:45] Yeah. But anyway, I like Basalt. Everybody’s friendly. I know most of the people there because they were here first. Or, you know, have been moving quite regularly to Basalt.

 

Mike Monroney [01:02:03] I can’t think of her name right now, but the first woman mayor of Basalt?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:02:07] Oh, don’t. Please don’t. She’s awful.

 

Mike Monroney [01:02:10] Oh, really? Oh, I can’t think of her name right now. Her husband’s name is Art. I remember that.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:02:14] White, White, Whitesit. What is her name?

 

Mike Monroney [01:02:16] No, not the mayor now. Back… Art….. Art and his wife. She was like

mayor in 1970.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:02:23] The mayor now is just a mess.

 

Mike Monroney [01:02:25] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:02:26] I mean, she just, she doesn’t do anything but complain. But I have a wonderful……………….. you’ve got to come down and see my apartment. Isn’t it a nice apartment?

 

Michelle Bass [01:02:38] It’s beautiful.

 

Mike Monroney [01:02:39] Are you on the river or… ?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:02:41] I’ve got my…. one balcony is on the river. And the other balcony is

looking out over the street.

 

Mike Monroney [01:02:47] Oh, nice. Right on Main Street.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:02:50] Some lady from Dallas bought two units, and unfortunately, she died. And I was.   it was only on the market for one day. I bought it because I knew it was going to sell

so quickly.

 

Mike Monroney [01:03:05] Right.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:03:07] But it’s really nice. I’m close to where I can get food. You know that guy that has this………………….. brings it in for the summer? He’s right below me.

 

Mike Monroney [01:03:20] Wow. And you can go down to the river if you want, and down to the park. And there’s concerts down in the park, and the farmers’ market and all that. It’s a nice place.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:03:31] Yeah, I like it. And I have a daughter living there. Not with me, but in her own little place. What’s that?

 

Mike Monroney [01:03:40] Somebody’s phone in the other room is ringing. It’s vibrating. It’s next door. So here’s a question: if somebody were to say to you, “Jackie, I’m thinking about moving to the Roaring Fork Valley. What does it take to make a life in the Roaring Fork Valley?” What would you tell them?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:04:07] Be patient. Because you have to wait for everything. Right?

 

Mike Monroney [01:04:14] Right.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:04:15] The store, the grocery store, the cars are all in the way. And you have to be very patient or very rich…so you can get somebody else to go to the store for you.

 

Mike Monroney [01:04:29] Well, that’s one way to do it.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:04:34] Well, you live in… you like where… you’ve got a nice place to live, though. You’ve got a very pretty road there.

 

Michelle Bass [01:04:43] We’re on Mountain View Drive, which is an old neighborhood off Cemetery.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:04:47] It’s very pretty.

 

Mike Monroney [01:04:50] I wish… I’m just blanking on Art. The Art that lives… he grew up… his family ran the Woods Lake Lodge, or the resort when he was a kid, and he used to take a horse ride down. He’s still alive, but I can’t think of Art’s last name. And he had…

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:09] Where does he live?

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:09] He lives up, kind of up above, in an older section of town, but up above…

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:14] Oh, Red Mountain, you mean?

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:15] Pardon?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:16] Up Red Mountain?

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:17] No, no. In Basalt, I’m talking about Basalt.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:18] Oh, in Basalt.

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:19] Yeah. I just can’t think of his last name right now, but I bet you know him.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:24] Probably. I’ve been meeting a lot of people.

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:27] I bet.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:27] It’s fun. If you go to have dinner like I do, by myself a lot, at Heather’s…

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:36] Yes. There’s always music there too.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:39] Yeah, I just… if I can’t find anybody who wants to go there, I just go and sit at the bar. And pretty soon I’m…

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:46] Talking to somebody.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:47] …talking to somebody.

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:48] So who do people tell you that you look like?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:51] Oh, of course you know who that is.

 

Mike Monroney [01:05:53] Well, I want you to tell us.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:05:59] Well, she’s the judge.

 

Mike Monroney [01:06:01] Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And it’s funny, until somebody else said it, it never occurred to me, but they’re so absolutely right.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:06:08] Do you know that I get stopped about once every five times, five days, particularly if I’m in an airport. Everybody stops me in the airport. But she was in town a couple of years ago, and I had lunch with her because… I did.

 

Mike Monroney [01:06:32] Did you guys look like sisters?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:06:34] Well, we went to a very private place. And she was there for the Institute.

 

Mike Monroney [01:06:43] Right.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:06:45] And it was so much fun meeting her. She’s so bright. Very smart lady.

 

Mike Monroney [01:06:53] We need her.

 

Michelle Bass [01:06:55] We do.

 

Mike Monroney [01:06:57] Well, I can think of a lot worse people to be compared to. So you’re lucky in that respect.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:07:03] Yeah. There’s one man… I was sitting at a table with Wendy, and I forgot who she was with. Anyway, we’re sitting at a table in the, where the dining area is, not out where the bar is. And I’m sitting at a table, and this man comes up to me and says, “Well, are you really Ruth Bader Ginsburg?” And I said, “No, I am not.” He said, “You wouldn’t tell me if you were, would you?” And I said, “Can’t you just understand? I’m not.” So he goes, went back to his

 

table, and he kept looking at me. Finally I got up to leave, and his wife said, “I told him that he was wrong,” like that. {laughter} Oh, dear. Airports are the worst.

 

Mike Monroney [01:08:01] All right. I’m just going to say the names of some places that used to be in Aspen, and tell me if you have an association or a memory or anything. Golden Horn.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:08:10] Oh, gosh, yes. I worked there. And I wasn’t a very good waitress, I must say. And I had a whole tray full of stuff that I was moving, and people were dancing, you know, they just dance in there. And all of a sudden, I dropped the tray, and Steve Knowlton said, “Well, we better stop the music until Jackie picks up the mess. ”

 

Mike Monroney [01:08:35] Very funny. And he was the owner at the time.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:08:38] Yeah. He was the owner. So then I decided I didn’t want to work there because it’s too hard to be… everybody… it was the afternoon… place to go…

 

Mike Monroney [01:08:46] Après ski.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:08:47] Après ski and people dancing. And then you have to go through with a tray. And so that’s when I started working at the Red Onion.

 

Mike Monroney [01:08:54] Okay. Crystal Palace. Any stories about the Crystal Palace?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:02] I don’t… no, I haven’t got any stories.

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:04] Okay, how about the… We talked about the Hotel Jerome already. We talked about the Red Onion already. How about the Boomerang and…?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:16] Boomerang?

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:16] Yeah, the hotel that Charlie Paterson built.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:20] Oh, I don’t know about that.

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:22] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:23] I know Charlie Paterson.

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:25] Yeah. Do you have any stories about Charlie? And well, you knew his father, too?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:29] Well, I knew his father. I was never close to Charlie Paterson.

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:33] Okay. Charlie and his wife, Fonda.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:36] Yeah. Very nice people, by the way, though.

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:39] Right. Oh, no, I was lucky to meet both of them. Stapleton family. Did you know any of the Stapletons?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:46] Yes. Wendy lives in… her house is the grandmother Stapleton’s house.

 

Mike Monroney [01:09:55] Oh.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:09:56] And somebody…

 

Michelle Bass [01:09:58] Where is it?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:10:00] It’s Fifth and Francis. And somebody, after when she died, somebody bought the house and changed it a bit, but not a whole lot. I mean, it’s still got the same fireplace and the pretty living room, and… But when Wendy moved in there, she bought it, and she’s a very good friend of the Stapletons to begin with, all of the Stapletons. They’re always at our Thanksgiving dinner.

 

Mike Monroney [01:10:32] Okay.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:10:33] And so Wendy moved in, and she called me like the crack of dawn. She said, “Mom, I think this place is haunted.” She was so afraid. So I go over there, and I said, “Why do you think that?” She said, “Well, you know that little music box you gave me that never worked? Last night it worked.” And then she said, “And there was a whole bunch of books,” I mean, “pictures lined up on my…” thing that she had in the bedroom, and they went down like a house of cards. And then I said, “Wendy, you know what? Mrs. Stapleton is just making sure that the person who’s got this is a very nice person.” And that was it. And so from then on, every Thanksgiving we have the Stapletons.

 

Mike Monroney [01:11:30] How about Laurence Elisha? Do you know the Elishas? They’re connected with the Jerome.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:11:34] I do. Yeah, of course. But I never… they’re not around anymore.

 

Mike Monroney [01:11:41] No. No., they’re gone. There’s still some family members. How about Stuart Mace?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:11:49] I was never close to Stuart. I liked his daughter, but I was never close to Stuart.

 

Mike Monroney [01:11:55] How about the Berkos?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:11:57] Oh, yeah. Berkos are great, but they’ve torn their house down.

 

Mike Monroney [01:12:04] I know, but they still own the studio that Ted Mularz built, so it’s still there.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:12:08] Just, when you go around now, when I drive around the streets of Aspen, and I want to get in the back streets, I can’t believe it. Everything’s being torn down. It’s just not the same.

 

Mike Monroney [01:12:22] Well, and that house, they’re just, I think it’s, they’re just remodeling it. It’s still there. And then Harry Teague just put an addition on the studio too which is quite nice on the side. And they still own that. How about Tom Sardy?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:12:41] I loved Tom Sardy. He was so nice to me when I first came because I didn’t know anybody, you know. And he had the hardware store.

 

Mike Monroney [01:12:50] Right.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:12:51] And the funeral parlor.

 

Mike Monroney [01:12:53] Yes, he did.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:12:54] So I went in to get something in the hardware store, and he was so nice to me. He said, “Well, where are you from?” I said, “Well, I’m from, originally from Maine, but now I’m trying to stay here.” And he said, “Well, do you want a job?” I said, “No, I don’t think so right away.” But he said, “Well, if you ever need anything to… your house… if you ever…in your house, if something needs to be fixed, here’s my card.” He was very nice, and his wife was equally as nice. They were very good friends.

 

Mike Monroney [01:13:32] This is maybe a long shot…Ron Krajian.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:13:34] Yes.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:13:34] You knew Ron?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:13:35] Yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [01:13:36] He was a good man.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:13:38] Very. There were a lot of good people in Aspen. Still are, but it’s just sort of overgrown.

 

Mike Monroney [01:13:47] Yeah. Anything you’d like to say to wrap up or a story that you want to tell that we might have missed along the way?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:13:54] This is my mantra, given to me years ago by Triny Barnes. Enjoy. “Lord, thou knowest well and better than I that I am growing older and will someday be old. Keep me from getting talkative, especially the false habit of thinking that I must say something on every subject. Release me from trying to straighten out everybody’s affairs. Make me thoughtful, but not moody. Helpful but not intrusive. With my vast store of wisdom, it seems a pity not to use it all the time, but thou must knowest, Lord, that I want a few friends at the end. Keep my mind from reciting endless details. Give me wings to get to the point. Give me grace to listen. Seal my lips on aches and pains. They will increase, and my urge to rehearse them will become greater with time. Teach me the glorious lesson that occasionally, it is possible that I may be mistaken. Keep me reasonably sweet. I do not want to be a saint. They are so hard to live with. But a sour old woman is one of the crowning words of the devil. Help me to extract joy from life.” Isn’t that neat?

 

Mike Monroney [01:15:07] Well, and I would guess that there is nobody who would say that you did not extract joy from life, Jackie Wogan.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:15:14] Oh, I know, but anyway…

 

Mike Monroney [01:15:17] That’s a lovely way to end. So, thank you so much for that. And thanks for taking the time to talk to us. All right. Thanks. Anything else?

{Break in filming}

 

Mike Monroney [01:15:26] So, Jackie, we brought you back because we want to tell one more story. And just… you did something very special on your 80th birthday, and I’ll let you describe it.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:15:36] Well, I went to Boulder, and I hired somebody to take me up in an airplane and jump out of it.

 

Mike Monroney [01:15:45] Was it a perfectly good airplane?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:15:47] Oh, yeah.

 

Mike Monroney [01:15:47] Why would you jump out of a perfectly good airplane?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:15:50] Because I wanted to see it, all around me.

 

Mike Monroney [01:15:52] Okay. So this… Jackie Wogan [01:15:54] It was exciting. Mike Monroney [01:15:55] You skydived. Jackie Wogan [01:15:56] I skydived.

Mike Monroney [01:15:57] And was this the first time? Jackie Wogan [01:15:58] The first time. But it’s not the last. Mike Monroney [01:16:00] Oh, you’ve been again?

Jackie Wogan [01:16:01] I’m going.

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:02] Oh.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:03] Well, you see, I’m going to be 90 next year.

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:06] Next June. All right, I want to…

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:09] I go to Boulder.

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:11] Wow.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:12] And my kids will all say, “Oh no you won’t.” And I said, “Oh yes, I will.”

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:17] What did you do on your way down while you were flying through the sky like that?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:20] You can’t imagine how beautiful it is. I mean, unless you’re afraid.

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:25] Well, I think anybody would be afraid. But the point is to enjoy being afraid and then conquering that.

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:31] Yeah. And go with somebody that you really trust. Mike Monroney [01:16:35] And somebody told me you sang on the way down. Jackie Wogan [01:16:37] I did.

Mike Monroney [01:16:38] What’d you sing?

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:39] “Fly me to the moon…” Isn’t that the way it goes?

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:43] That’s it. “Fly me to the moon, and let me play among the stars…”

 

Jackie Wogan [01:16:47] That’s it.

 

Mike Monroney [01:16:49] Very nice. That’s a great story.