Video Interview: Jack DePagter

1993.023.0007 Video History Jack DePagter

Interview with Judith Gertler

August 18, 1993

Judith Gertler [00:00:18] This is a video history with Jack DePagter on August 18th, 1993, in Aspen, Colorado, as part of the Aspen Historical Society’s Video History Project. The interviewer is Judith Gertler. Jack, I’m really glad to meet you, and I’m glad that we were able to rearrange things so that you could be part of this project.

Jack DePagter [00:00:43] Well, thank you very much. I think it’s an honor that you thought of me and that you want to have a conversation with me.

Judith Gertler [00:00:50] Let’s start our conversation with something about your background. Can you tell us where and when you were born and where you grew up?

Jack DePagter [00:01:00] Okay. Sure. I’m originally from the Netherlands. I’m an American by choice, not like you people. You have to be Americans. But I’m American by choice. I was born and raised in the Netherlands, a small island, Walcheren, southern part of Holland, and then stayed there. And when the war broke out, I escaped to France. So I was very, very lucky. So I practiced French. We studied French, German, English in school, and then I lived in France. And then I got in connections with the Underground. What we actually did, we smuggled people, especially Dutch people and pilots, anyone that spoke English, to Spain. Of course, I discovered that much later, because at that time you don’t know that. However, I was there two and a half years. I’m glad to say. I hope we saved a lot of people’s life. When the Americans came into our town, as I was the only one that spoke English, they said, “You can be of very good help in the American Army.” I said, “Well, I’m not French, I’m Dutch.” I had French false papers. However, this means you’re going to be drafted in the Dutch army, but let’s do something about it. So the Americans drafted me, or I volunteered, and they attached me to the American Army. So then we fought during the war in August, September, October… Battle of the Bulge… went into Germany and was in the Army. When we were in Austria when the war was over, then I had an opportunity to go to America. Now that’s another long story, because I happened to paint a little bit as a hobby as a young man, and when he was going to go to Wisconsin, was from Wisconsin, Sheboygan. I gave him a little painting, and I signed my name, Jack DePagter. He said, “Is your name DePagter?” I said, “Sure.” He said, “Oh, I thought you were “Dutchy.” Everybody called me “Dutchy” and {cough} excuse me. So he said, “Gee, because my sister has a friend, and her name is DePagter also, and they claim they’re Dutch descent. Now, we come from a small island, and anyone with that name should be related. Dad got a kick out of it. So he went to the island, back to the island, and checked, and indeed, in 1862, two brothers, far away relatives, moved to America. And there is still, passed away, of course, but their relatives are still in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. So Dad wrote a letter, and he said, “Well, in case anybody wants to come and visit us, the door is open.” There was a young lady, Ruth DePagter, same name, and she took it up. She said, “Well, I’ve got to go to Europe. I’m going to see my faraway relatives. And if it doesn’t work, I’ll go.” So it worked out very well. They came. In the meantime, I was discharged in the Army, worked in Switzerland because I was interested in the hotel business. And she said, “Why don’t you come to America?” I said, “What should I do in America?” I said, “I like it here.” I had a good job in Switzerland in a hotel. And Dad said, “What’s the matter with you? Young guy like you? Why don’t you go to America?” And then I happened to discover they were advertising the FIS 1950. And I thought, gee. So I wrote a letter to Aspen, Hotel Jerome was the only place of any importance. And they said, “Oh, we’d like to have people like you. Why don’t you come over?” And that was after the war and we could not buy any dollars. So I was allowed to have a permit for $45. So to make a long story short, I managed to make it as far… I wrote to the Hotel Jerome. They said, “You come as a waiter, we need you.” So, um, I could, I made it only as far as Freeport, Illinois, because I didn’t have any more money. I found a job there for three weeks, made $64, bought a ticket to Aspen. So that’s how I came to Aspen.

Judith Gertler [00:04:55] And how did you travel from Illinois to Aspen?

Jack DePagter [00:04:59] Oh, with the California Zephyr. Took the train, $55, $53, and I had $64. And I hitchhiked from Glenwood to Aspen. We had a bus, so I came to Aspen. Funny thing was, when I got here, it was on a Friday and I said, “I’m the young man from Holland, and I understand you have a job for me as a, as a waiter.” He said, “Well, we hate to disappoint you. We don’t need a waiter.” I had $7 left. So I thought, my Lord, what am I going to do now? And he said, “Oh, but don’t worry about it. We’re looking for a bartender.” I said, “I’m sorry. I don’t know anything about your American drinks.” He said, “We don’t care because the bartender before took off with the money.” And Mr. Bishop, who was in charge of the hotel, he said to me, “We’re looking for a young man. You have to promise me two things: that you’re honest and that you don’t drink on the job.” I said, “It’s a deal.” So I became a bartender. It was rough because the people were saying, “Bartender! Oh, you must be the Dutch kid. Can we have a Coors?” I said, “Sorry, what’s a Coors?” I didn’t know what Coors was. And, however, within 1 or 2 days, everybody knew there was a new bartender there in the Hotel Jerome, boy, and he doesn’t know anything about it, so they got a kick out of it. “Fix me a martini.” I said, “Okay, now you tell me what to do.” “Take that glass a little ice and mix it like this.” And they got such a kick out of it. So I was a good, uh, advertising for the Hotel Jerome. And I’ve been there for many, many years.

Judith Gertler [00:06:37] Do you remember, as you drove into town, you hitchhiked in a car, I would assume? Do you remember as you drove into town what the town looked like in 1949?

Jack DePagter [00:06:47] It was a very… Oh, I didn’t make it because, you see, not in ’49. Because I had to wait three weeks before I had $64 for the ticket.

Judith Gertler [00:06:58] When did you arrive in Aspen?

Jack DePagter [00:07:00] January, 1950. But I was on my way from, from, uh, Freeport, Illinois. Uh, it happened to be bad weather. A lady here in town, born and raised here, the Duroux. She gave me a ride. Albena Duroux. It was snowing, so, uh… Well, Aspen looked pretty nice. To a certain extent, I thought I had ended up in Russia because I saw so many empty houses. Wooden houses. You could poke your fingers through the walls. And I thought, my Lord, if this is America, I’ll stick it out till the season is over. However, I was here two days, and I was invited for a luncheon. I thought the people were just fantastic. I thought they were great.

Judith Gertler [00:07:46] Where was the luncheon and who invited you?

Jack DePagter [00:07:50] They had house on Main Street. Mrs. Kessler. Came here on a Friday; Sunday I happened to go to church. We had Protestant church here, and they said, “Oh, yeah, we heard about you. Uh, why don’t you come over for lunch?” So I had contact after two days. So…

Judith Gertler [00:08:07] Where did you stay when you came here?

Jack DePagter [00:08:11] Oh, in Chitwood, which is now above, uh, La Cantina, I think it is? Or…yes, the Chitwood. They had a few rooms there for the employees and, well, I was one of them, stayed there. I think, if I’m not mistaken, we only had about 9 or 10 employees. The hotel, of course, was not as big as it is now. And we were many Europeans. I think there were two Americans. The rest were all new imported Europeans, a lot of Swiss, because they gave that atmosphere, and they thought it was nice when people would come from Denver or Grand Junction or Doctor Livingston from Glenwood Springs. And they all could practice a little German or a little French, and that added to the atmosphere. And then of course, they said, “Aspen is different. You go there and they have culture.” And so it was a good reputation. We had a good reputation, and we were not snobs. We were just plain different. And most of the people that came there, the Europeans, were well educated. I mean, there were, they had good backgrounds. They had a good…Friedl Pfeifer, of course, Fred Iselin, originally Europeans. So they all had accents, and it was a good, good understanding. And that grew and that grew.

Judith Gertler [00:09:41] Can you tell us a little bit more about what it was like in the Jerome in those days? Any stories about people who came in? Or what the hotel looked like or…?

Jack DePagter [00:09:54] Well, the hotel, of course, the bar, I was the bartender. Still the same. Still the same spot. And they had a 4:00 Club, a cocktail hour. And Mr. Sardy used to come and Mrs. Glover, that was the mother of, uh, Mrs. Deane, T Lazy Seven. They used to talk and hear, and it was good atmosphere. That’s where I met Mr. Poschman’s mother for the first time, and she added to the atmosphere also because his mother was a giggle. And it was just plain fun. It was just plain fun, and it was a good atmosphere. Now, Mr. Elisha was the owner, Mr. Bishop was the manager. And of course, Mr. Paepcke was the one with the money and controlled everything. However, they let us be free. And we drew a lot of people from, from the outside, let’s say Denver: the Robinsons, uh, Pabst, the Coors used to come here. So we got a reputation that Aspen was a little different. And then the Fords came, uh, well known people. So it was a very good atmosphere.

Judith Gertler [00:11:07] At this time, the skiing was just beginning to build also. Did you ever do anything on the ski mountain, and if so, what did you do?

Jack DePagter [00:11:18] After two years, they built, they built a new lift, Number Three. I think it has been replaced now; there’s already three new lifts. Number Three. But then we helped building a new lift, Number Three, and Mr. Rowland said to me, “Jack,” he said, “you know, you have a good reputation. Would you like to work in the daytime as a lift operator?” I said, “Sure” because, you know, we had bought a little house then, and so I needed the money, and we lived right next to it, so all, I could go to work within two minutes before 8:00 and then start shoveling snow and loaded the people. And we worked for $0.75, which was one of the best paid jobs in Aspen. And, and I enjoyed it. It was fun, I enjoyed it, and of course, so many local people would come and, uh, Guido was there. And Werner Kuster, that owns that place, he bought the Red Onion later. So we knew a lot of people then. It was a good, good atmosphere. So I helped him with building the lift Number Three. And then I worked there for a couple of years.

Judith Gertler [00:12:23] About what time period are we speaking of?

Jack DePagter [00:12:26] Wintertime…oh, 1952, I think it was.

Judith Gertler [00:12:29] What did skiers look like in those days? What were they wearing and what were they skiing on?

Jack DePagter [00:12:35] Oh, they had, uh, baggy pants was fashion, and they looked good. And you had to have white socks over your ski boots. They called them ski socks because they looked nice and wore baggy pants. And sweaters, all the time were sweaters, and goggles, and they had some sort of a jacket. I think they came from Alaska, with a furry thing. The Army had those things. And then if you had one, if you could find one, then you were in. Of course, skiing wasn’t all that great during that time or as popular, because I remember my wife and I, we went to Denver once, we didn’t have a car. We had to ride. And they said, “Where are you people from?” And we said, “From Aspen.” And they said, “Oh, yeah, that’s somewhere in the hills. And what do you do, people do there?” I said, “Well, we’re in the ski business.” They said, “Oh yeah, you stand on a piece of wood and you slide down, isn’t it?” So those people had no conception actually what the skiing was. However, with the 10th Mountain Division, who came then to Aspen or was in Aspen and showed their faces, and then a good number of Europeans who had been in the army in Europe, they said, “Gee, Aspen is a good mountain and has good snow conditions.” So it worked out pretty good. So we got a good reputation.

Judith Gertler [00:13:59] Any other stories about early skiing and, and what you witnessed as, when you were working on the lift?

Jack DePagter [00:14:08] I didn’t have day off. I counted the days. Uh, I had a good time, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed the people. I liked to talk to them. They were always very nice and friendly. Of course, there were sad and cold days where I froze, and I was alone on the lift. So I had to eat standing up, and I couldn’t go to the bathroom. Ski patrol was nice once in a while and they said, “Jack, stop the lift, go around the corner.” So we organized that. And then when Rowland was up on top, he said, “What did you stop the lift for?” I would say, “Well, I got to go sometime.” So he sort of laughed it off. And then the people that were in line would say, “What’s going on here?” I said, “Nothing.” I said, “You know, we’re checking the machinery.” All I had to do was go to the bathroom.

Judith Gertler [00:14:54] Did you ever ski?

Jack DePagter [00:14:56] Oh, yeah. I had to ski down.

Judith Gertler [00:14:58] So did you spend much time skiing?

Jack DePagter [00:15:01] Every day, coming down from lift Number Three to our house, every day. One run. Actually, that’s where I learned to ski, because I was, I’m originally from the Netherlands, and we don’t ski much there.

Judith Gertler [00:15:21] I understand that you, um, you had some early goals. Perhaps a dream about what you’d like to do in Aspen, what you’d like to build here. Can you tell us about the beginnings of your idea for building a…?

Jack DePagter [00:15:37] Gee, how nice of you to ask. Well, when the season was over, uh, the winter season, and I had a job in Switzerland. I was supposed to go back to Switzerland. They weren’t very pleased that I didn’t show up that winter. And Mr. Bishop said to me, he said, “Why don’t you stay here in Aspen?” I said, “Look, I got a job.” He said, “Oh, we can always find something for you to do in the off season.” So I helped tearing down houses, and we were building a swimming pool, and we painted that and a little bit of everything. And then in the summertime, I was the bartender again. Then I had been in the hotel business, I worked in hotels, and then my sponsors from Wisconsin came over that summer, and they wanted to see how I was doing. I called them Uncle and Aunt because they were older than I am. And so I said, “Uncle Bill, Aunt Roma, I’m doing fine.” And they didn’t trust me that much, so they had a good excuse to come to Aspen. They took the train, came to Aspen, and Uncle Bill said, “You know what? I think you’re smart when you stay here. There’s a future.” I said, “I don’t have any money. I’ve only been here seven months.” He said, “In this country, we borrow money and that’s what we work with.” I said, “I don’t have any background, nothing.” He said, “We’ll talk to the boss.” And I went to Mr. Elisha, and he said, he was one of the directors of the bank, and he said, “Oh, well, for young people like you…” And I had proven, I guess. I had, there were days where I had three jobs. “If you, if you want to, we’ll help you.” So Uncle Bill said to me, “There’s an old house for sale next to the lift with a piece of property, $6,000.” That was a lot of money. And I looked at it, and deep in my heart, I didn’t want to buy it. I didn’t want any commitment. And I thought, gee, yeah, I could fix that. You know, put a couple of rooms in here and the rooms in there, could have 12 people, slept 12 people. And I worked on the lift in the daytime, and in the evening, we worked at the, I was the bartender. That’s actually how we started it and how it grew. And so the years went by and now we have a small lodge.

Judith Gertler [00:17:50] What was the lodging situation in town in the early ’50s when you bought what has become your lodge?

Jack DePagter [00:18:00] Actually, there weren’t any lodges. There were a few motels. Um, let me think. Westerner Court was a motel on Main Street. It’s called now the Christmas Inn. They modernized it. And there was another one next to the Chevron station. They had some cabins. Those cabins are still there. There were 3 or 4 places like that. The Holiday House. There was an old house, they fixed that up, it was an old house. And that was actually the, were the accommodations. Of course, the Hotel Jerome was number one. And they had, they had built some houses, and they had some apartments, still there. And they had the Roaring Fork, and they had the Aspen Block, and Roaring Fork is now the, I think the Pentagon or something like that, Paragon, whatever they call it. And they had bunk beds there. And then, so when skiers would come, you could stay there for two and a half or $3 in a bunk. And then the fancy ones were in the Hotel Jerome.

Judith Gertler [00:19:10] What did you name your lodge?

Jack DePagter [00:19:12] Well, actually, uh, I didn’t name it myself. People would say, “Gee, where are you staying?” They said, “Oh, at that Hollander’s house.” My name was too difficult to say. We didn’t have a name. And they said, “Oh, yeah, we’re staying at the Hollander’s house.” And I said, “Well, as long as that’s the reputation, why don’t we just call it Holland House?” It’s still there.

Judith Gertler [00:19:35] You have the distinction of, in town, in terms of longevity of a lodge. Can you tell us what that is, please?

Jack DePagter [00:19:48] Now, you mean, we’re still there? {laughter} First of all, when you live in a resort like Aspen or any resort, people come here for a break. They want a change. Like people, number one. If you live in a town like Aspen and you don’t like people, you’re going to make a flop out of your life. You have to like people. That’s why I think I had a good reputation in, in the Hotel Jerome bar as the bartender. I like people. And it was the same in our house. People would come from Denver or wherever they come from, and I said, “Oh yeah, first time here?” “Yes, first time.” “Now you should do this and go skiing.” We had two lifts and “Don’t forget to do this and that, and we’re going to have a jump” or whatever it was. And the people enjoyed it because they had the feeling, they knew they were welcome. And I have to say that with all the employees in the Hotel Jerome, they gave that same atmosphere. In other words, uh, we lived on it. I mean, you know, if there were no guests in town, then, of course, we couldn’t make any money. Talking about that, that makes me think about the Winter Carnival, because after 1950, there was nothing going on. I mean, it was over. And the very first year we had, uh, well, they closed the lifts, there were no people in town.

Judith Gertler [00:21:15] When did they close the lifts?

Jack DePagter [00:21:17] After New Year’s, let’s say the weekend after New Year’s, till some college kids came from Colorado Springs. We sort of tried to bring that up. And it was, at least we have, you know, they’re only three weeks we have no business. And then I was in the bar, as a bartender, and I said to Delphine Carpenter, I said, “You know what we should do? We should have a festival for the last week or the third week in January, so we only have two poor weeks.” And I said, “Let’s make a carnival.” And that’s how we started with the winter carnival.

Judith Gertler [00:21:52] Who else was there at the beginning of the discussions of the carnival?

Jack DePagter [00:21:59] Let me think. Uh, Miss Nolan. Miss Nolan, she passed away. Delphine passed away.

Kevin Padden (sound) [00:22:06] Excuse me, the hand on the microphone there.

Greg Poschman (camera) [00:22:08] Oh yeah, the…

Jack DePagter [00:22:08] Oh, I’m so sorry. And, you know, they were the ones, they worked in the Hotel Jerome, publicity, so, or promotion. So we gave them our ideas, and they were professionals. So they said, “Why don’t we do it this way? Why don’t we do it that way?” And we didn’t have any money. Myrna Armstrong, who was the waitress in the bar, said, “We’re going to fix this. Wait, we’re going to make this a fun thing.” And we had buttons. Somebody donated some money. Matter of fact, we had $52 to start. And so we bought some buttons and sold them for a quarter. So we started with a little bit of money, and that’s how it grew.

Judith Gertler [00:22:53] What was the name of the carnival and how was it named?

Jack DePagter [00:22:56] Well, we didn’t know exactly what we were going to call it. We were going to call it Winter Carnival. And then, uh, Mr. Sardy was there, sitting at the bar. And Mr. Woodall, who was the bank director, he said, “I’m going to make a toast to your intentions for a carnival. So Sköl to you.” And all of a sudden Sardy said, “Why don’t we call it a Winter Sköl?” That’s how it was, and that’s how it stayed.

Judith Gertler [00:23:31] How did you get people here that first January of Wintersköl? How did you…?

Jack DePagter [00:23:38] It was in 1951, the first one. We had about ten volunteers. Now I like to draw a little bit. So we advertised in town with “Bon Ami,” and I had, so I painted on the windows, all pictures of skiers. So then we went to Basalt, went to Carbondale. We asked those merchants if we could paint their windows and, for a little advertising in Aspen, of course, you know, it was a winter time and they didn’t have much business. They said, “Sure.” So we went to Glenwood, and Glenwood was very cooperative. We went to Grand Junction, went to Rifle, so around here our area, Western Slope. So we drew quite a bit of people, and I was in charge of it. So what I did, I called everybody in town that they had to be in the parade because that was important. People like to please their eyes, so I said, “Well, everybody has admitted they’re going to be in the parade, even if you just walk there with an umbrella or as a clown, or take your dog or be in the parade, because if not, you will be the only one.” The result was we had a big parade. More people in the parade than on the street watching us.

Judith Gertler [00:24:54] Where did the parade run?

Jack DePagter [00:24:56] From the Hotel Jerome, Main Street. Still the same here. Uh, Hotel Jerome, um, in front of the Opera House. Uh, the mall wasn’t there, of course, so you could go to the end. And then, what’s the Pitkin County, Pitkin County store there? That was the end of the town. There were a few cabins there where the Red Onion was. And that was it.

Judith Gertler [00:25:22] And what were some of the other activities that you had during the day in the first Wintersköl?

Jack DePagter [00:25:29] There were three bars then, if I’m not mistaken, or four. So I went to all the owners and said, “Why don’t we make Monday night your night?” And they’d say, “Ski & Spur Night.” They said, “Okay, um, I’ll go down with the beer, it’s $0.10 instead of $0.15.” Or the Eagles had a night, we’ll call it Eagles Night. So they, everyone had a night. And the headquarters were the Hotel Jerome where everything went on. And so, however, the others did not have the feeling they were left out. In the contrary. So a whole bunch would go to the Eagles, a whole bunch would go to, uh, we had another place, it was a little place called the Silver Grill, I think. They had a little booth. They had opened up, tiny little eating place, and they said, “Oh yeah, why don’t you send them over? I invite them all for lunch.” So we posted that for them, and they were very pleased. And so it grew, and it was a good atmosphere. Went to the school. And then they said instead of going Fridays, they had to show and tell or whatever they call it, they were going to go up on the, on the race on Little Nell, and they had an obstacle race, and the kids were dressed up. We all asked them, you know, put colors on the face and a hat. And so it grew. It worked out pretty good.

Judith Gertler [00:27:04] What kinds of people came to be part of Wintersköl?

Jack DePagter [00:27:11] Be part of it? I would say…

Judith Gertler [00:27:12] To participate, to, to…

Jack DePagter [00:27:14] To watch it.

Judith Gertler [00:27:14] To watch it.

Jack DePagter [00:27:15] Well it grew. It took a while. We had, of course, you know, the people that would come that we knew from Denver, the Coorses and the Pabsts and the, the Robinsons. And then we say, “Why don’t you come over for that week? We’re going to have something special.” And they got a kick out of it. So those were the ones that came. And then we knew some, a doctor here in Glenwood Springs, Doctor Livingston, who was very, very cooperative. He had his friends. He said, “Oh, okay, we’re all going to go to Aspen this coming Saturday.” And Grand Junction merchants, people, and they thought, gee, we might as well be cooperative there with Aspen because if they come to Grand Junction, they’re going to drop in my store. And even if there’s only $10 or $15, we add to it, because Grand Junction wasn’t very big either.

Judith Gertler [00:28:07] As you think back, what’s your, what is your fondest memory of, of the whole Wintersköl experience?

Jack DePagter [00:28:16] Um, we did it with a purpose to boost the town, because the business was poor and the lifts weren’t running, and so everybody could survive a little better. See, we were living off each other. And it worked. Doctor Barnard was very good that way. He cooperated. Matter of fact, he, uh, offered a free luncheon for all those who had worked for the Winter Carnival. I think we were about 15 or 16 people. And I think Ruth was there, too, and it worked very well. It was a good atmosphere, and I would say when we stopped and looked back, the, the purpose, we survived in the purpose or we, we managed to get our purpose. It was boosting up business in town.

Judith Gertler [00:29:07] Were there any disasters, any, any real problems with this…?

Jack DePagter [00:29:13] Sort of. We ran out of money, and because people had donated this and then we invited a movie star. We have, uh, the Hotel Jerome, of course, offered a free room, complimentary room and a ticket, of course, a lift ticket. However, we had to do a fancy this and a little fancy that, so we ran out of money. And it was during, uh, they had changed management in the Hotel Jerome. There was a gentleman, I’m not going to tell his name, and he was not very cooperative because he was going to straighten out all the little things. That free donation here and the free donation there, he wasn’t in favor of that. So he said, “You people owe me $312 or $315. I want that by Saturday.” We didn’t have it. So we went to Mr. Parson with the movie house. He said, “I’ll get a cheap movie for you.” So we made money and so… but it left us a little bitter taste in our mouth with the management of the Hotel Jerome at that time.

Judith Gertler [00:30:18] Jack, how old is Wintersköl now? How long has it been going on?

Jack DePagter [00:30:25] Since 1951. We started in ’51.

Judith Gertler [00:30:30] How do you compare Wintersköl of the ’90s to the Wintersköl of the ’50s?

Jack DePagter [00:30:39] Night and day. Um, it’s good for the business. However, like with some parades years ago, it was a bunch of drunks and the fun, I mean, don’t sit there in a car and get drunk. I mean, that wasn’t the purpose of it. And I can see that we have fun, should have fun after all, but not that we’re going to throw water balloons or snowballs. It… and then when we discovered a couple of years ago, some people wanted to take advantage of us and they were going to advertise it, I was 100% against it. Now, that’s my opinion, because the purpose of it was just to build up, to boost up the business in town and have a good time, especially for the local kids, the bartenders, and the nurses and whoever they are, that they were part of it. And uh, but no, no company should come in and say, “Well, I’m going to advertise my chocolate through the Aspen Winter Carnival.” That was not it. We didn’t do that, and there was no purpose in that for… I was against it. And you would be amazed. Of course, I have retreated from the winter carnival, from the Wintersköl long, long time ago. However, a lot of people called me and said, “Jack, what is your opinion on that?” I said, “Well, that’s the way I feel about it. I have nothing to say about it anymore.” However, I didn’t, uh, feel like they should take advantage of us.

Judith Gertler [00:32:09] Let’s go back in time a little bit again to talk about the early ’50s, or the ’50s and the ’60s in Aspen. Uh, did your business pick up?

Jack DePagter [00:32:22] Oh, yes.

Judith Gertler [00:32:22] And can you talk a little bit about, um, the change in being a lodge owner from when you began and then up until more recently?

Jack DePagter [00:32:35] Sure, the…we had, uh, we had a small house and, uh, so when people would come, we didn’t have a car. Of course, in the meantime, the town has grown and lodges started to pop up, and, uh, uh, people took advantage of it. Good for them. After all, that was the purpose. Now, with our personal lodge, we did not advertise. We had a good location, and people liked to come to us. My wife is still cleaning. She’s still Dutch, I guess. And so we had a reputation. We were clean, and we were friendly. We have to be in the, in the hotel business. Even a lady that sells t-shirts, she has to be nice. If not, go to Chicago or go to Detroit and work in a factory where you can do always the same thing, go like this, and over and over. If you live in a resort, we are here to please the tourists. Unfortunately, a lot of people forget that.

Judith Gertler [00:33:36] How has your clientele changed over the years?

Jack DePagter [00:33:40] Not that much. They’re still coming. I have people that come over Christmas, we always have the same people. Now, of course, they have kids, and THEY have kids. And they said, “How come we cannot stay with you?” I said, “Well, I’m awfully sorry. We are only that small, or that big.” See, we only have 44 beds, so we’re not that big. They said, “Yeah, Mom and Dad have been with you for so many years, and we can’t even get on, get in.” I said, “Well, I’m sorry, that’s the way it is.” So we do not advertise. We haven’t. So it’s the reputation. However, of course, my daughter and her husband are taking over the business, slowly. I didn’t want to retreat right away. Otherwise the people would say, “We never go to Aspen anymore because Anneke and Jack aren’t there.” That’s why my daughter kept her name. Otherwise they would say, “Oh, the Simmonses….hmmmm, the DePagters must have sold their house. We’re not going anymore.” Because many people have said that if you ever sell or you leave town, we’re not coming to Aspen again. Don’t forget people that come on a vacation, sure, they come to ski, but a little extra. It’s a little extra. Be nice. “Aren’t you lucky the sun is shining?” In my heart, I would say I wish it would snow. And then I’d say, “Gee, you’re lucky. It’s the best week we ever had.” Or if it snows forever and ever and I wish it would quit, we’d say, you know “Powder again today for you!” So you can add to that, to their vacation. Of course, we shouldn’t advertise it that way, otherwise they’re going to say they get cheated. But the people that come here, give a little extra. “How did you sleep?” And what we do, when the people travel, of course, everything goes by plane now, and then if it is late, then we put a little note in the room and a glass of wine. “Sleep well. See you tomorrow morning.” Stuff like that.

Judith Gertler [00:35:34] Very personal.

Jack DePagter [00:35:35] Well, you have to be, because when we go on a vacation, we go to Mexico or go to Europe into the same place and the same people. And “Oh, yeah, those Americans, Mr. Señor Colorado is coming back again.” It’s nice. And they put a little flower in the room or a mango when we go to Mexico. It isn’t anything. However, it’s a little addition. And I think, again, those people that are in the tourist business, they should realize that is number one.

Judith Gertler [00:36:09] Do you think that that’s true in…

Jack DePagter [00:36:14] At the moment?

Judith Gertler [00:36:14] At the moment in Aspen?

Jack DePagter [00:36:17] I would say, yeah, a good number of people, their heart and souls are in there. Unfortunately, the younger, the younger generation, I feel sorry for them. They have no chance to stay here and be part of the town. I think that’s very, very sad because we were given the opportunity, and we made it. We’re still here, now we’re old. Now we have a daughter, you know, that’s now older than when we came here. But we were given an opportunity, and the town accepted it and we were part of it. Unfortunately, I know some kids… My daughter is 37 years old, born and raised here, goes to, went to school with kids…they had to move out. Their parents were born and raised here, and I think that’s sad. We didn’t see that. We have houses with 14 bathrooms, and you need a bicycle to open up the front door. I think that’s very sad. I think they should cut it in ten parts and give that to the locals with the heart and soul that… they’re part of the town. I know many, many people, their heart and soul is here in Aspen and they’re good. They donate time for this and they help with that. And, uh, they live in Basalt or downvalley, which is sad because they cannot afford it. And the other houses here are 90% vacant for the year. And I think that’s a sad situation. In my eyes now, not I’m going to say that I’m an Aspenite because I came here too. However, I feel like that most of those people that took over looked down upon those that really put their shoulders together and built up Aspen. And I think that’s sad. Or, uh, spec houses. They buy a house somewhere because Mrs. So-and-So, you know, was born and raised here and she had never seen the $30,000, and we’re going to give you 50 for that. She said, “Oh, Jack, what should I do? Gosh, never, you know, in all my life…” So they buy that house, knock it down, put a condominium up, and, uh, goodbye. That money goes to Texas, or it goes to New York; that doesn’t stay in Aspen. So, personally, I’m against those things.

Judith Gertler [00:38:43] I understand there’s a story about moving a house. Could you tell us about that?

Jack DePagter [00:38:50] Well, our original house, the Holland House, the old house, see, we had a good piece of property, very well located, and it was the old house. We lived right next to the lift.

Judith Gertler [00:39:02] Where exactly was the old property?

Jack DePagter [00:39:05] What’s now the Holland House, where the lodge is. So we bought a piece of property on Castle Creek, an acre of land. First we thought, why don’t we chop it down and then we have enough firewood, you know, for a winter. And I think that’s dumb. Why should we burn the house? So we borrowed a little money, bought the piece of property, and decided to move the house. And so I worked in there, I put down the foundation myself and chopped the trees. And then I went to the sheriff, if we needed a permit. He said, “Oh, no.” I said, “Well, moving a house on Main Street, through Main Street, don’t we have to have police escorts?” He said, “If they can’t see it, that there is a house moving,” he said, “they’d better see the doctor.” So everybody took the attitude. “Go. Sure. Why not?” So we moved it, and we still live in it.

Judith Gertler [00:39:56] And where? When did this take place?

Jack DePagter [00:39:59] It was after the Music School, the first week in September ’62? Or was it before that? I think it was ’62. Something like that.

Judith Gertler [00:40:12] What do you think your chances of being able to do that today are?

Jack DePagter [00:40:17] I feel sorry for the youngsters. I feel sorry. There are a lot of good, well work, good workers and with a purpose, they would like to live in Aspen and give their heart and soul. And they don’t have the opportunity. It’s snatched away. So I think for a youngster that would come here and start a business, uh, it’s difficult.

Judith Gertler [00:40:49] I know that you’ve been active in the Colorado Mountain Club. Would you tell us about the club and your involvement in it?

Jack DePagter [00:40:56] Okay. When I was in the Army, we were stationed in Bavaria, and, uh, every weekend, I thought, coming from Holland, I was flabbergasted because I had never seen mountains before. I thought it was fantastic, mountains in summertime with snow. And there was the Third Army, so I learned to ski there a little bit on weekends on the Zugspitze in Garmisch. And so I befriended some man there. He said, “Why not go mountain climbing?” So I got interested in, in mountain climbing. So I learned that. So when I came to Aspen, I wanted to continue this because I like to go, uh, into the mountains, and I like to share it with somebody else. I’ve had people in summertime or in wintertime, they come here to please their eyes and add to it. {break – tape runs out}

Greg Poschman (camera) [00:41:46] …just when you’re coming here and beginning to climb here. Go ahead.

Jack DePagter [00:41:52] Well, you see, I got interested in it because I like to please my eyes, too. And I thought… the fantastic country, back country. It was wild. The road to the Maroon wasn’t, of course, was not paved. And Ashcroft had two people, the Maces lived there with family. And there was another lady, even Irish, whatever her name was. And for the rest, it was just nice wilderness area. I think it was great, and I enjoyed that. So when I would come back to the bar in the evening, was the bartender, and they would say, uh, “Gee, where you been? You got a suntan.” I said, “Oh yeah, you should go over there. Take your old car and go to Maroon Lake, and there’s a nice trip over there.” And or “Go to Ashcroft. You can walk up to American Lake or whatever, whatever.” And I shared that. And then it was a gentleman, was sitting at the bar, from Denver. He said, “Oh, my name is so and so,” and he said, “I am one of the directors of the Colorado Mountain Club in Denver. Why don’t you join our group?” I did. So I think I paid $12 then for the duties. So I became a member, and they would come, people from Denver would come here and say, “Gee, Jack, you know your way around here.” I said, “Sure, it’s our backyard. Maroon Bells, or Pyramid Peak or whatever.” Uh, “Do this and don’t do that. Climb a mountain, but make sure when it’s after 12:00 you come down because in summertime, normally we have a thunderstorm.” So I, they got involved, and they came and visited me quite often. In the meantime, Fred Braun had moved to town, to Aspen, and he was interested in, in climbing too. So we organized little trips. And then I thought, well, in case… it was growing. And so then I thought, well, in case anything happens to me and I got hurt, uh, you know, I hope somebody’s going to come and look for me too. Broken arm or broken leg or who knows what? So we actually started the Mountain Rescue, that’s where we started. I think we had 7 or 8 people. In case… Sinclairs, you know, they were very active. He was very active. They had horses and were very cooperative. And then the Forest Service heard about us and said, “If you need any help, you call us.” And so that grew. Then Fred Braun said to me, he said, “You’re a member of the Denver group, aren’t you?” He said, “Why don’t we start our own here?” So I said, “Well, that’s not very thankful to the group in Denver.” So one general came over, and we talked. He said no, he thought it was very, very nice if he would have an Aspen chapter. So we started on that. So we still are the Aspen Chapter of Colorado Mountain Club.

Judith Gertler [00:44:42] Thinking back to the ’50s or the…

Jack DePagter [00:44:47] ’50s? ’60s?

Judith Gertler [00:44:47] Let me back up a minute, when did you become active in the Colorado Mountain Club? In the Denver branch? When did this start?

Jack DePagter [00:44:55] Oh my gosh, I think I was here one year.

Judith Gertler [00:44:58] So thinking about being in the mountains in the ’50s and the ’60s, what was climbing like? What were the trails like? Were there trails? If…

Judith Gertler [00:45:09] People thought we were crazy, and I said, “Oh, I climbed Pyramid Peak.” And they said, “Now what did you lose up there?” And they thought it was funny. Sandy Sabbatini was one of those, that he thought, “Jack, let’s go.” Mr. Shepard was another gentleman here in town. And so we organized that. They said, “Oh, how about next week? Why don’t we go to the Pass or let’s go up to, uh, where Stuart Mace lives, or let’s climb, uh, Cathedral or Castle.” So we did that, and it grew.

Judith Gertler [00:45:44] Were there any actual trails or did you blaze your own trails?

Jack DePagter [00:45:48] Sort of, by going there quite often. You see, we know exactly where to go. Matter of fact, I think I can say, I climbed Pyramid Peak 34 times, that we were the ones that organized a trail up on Pyramid Peak. It took me three trips in order to go to the top because we didn’t, there were no trails. We said, “Okay, now next time we go, we make it this far and let’s go a little further.” And then we did well, and we were looking for an easier route or an easier way. And we put cairns up, you know, those things. And so people from Denver would come, “Gee, Jack, I understand you know you’re way up on Pyramid Peak.” I said, “Well, just follow this and do…” Then I would draw a map as much as possible. “You let me know whenever you come back how, how well you did.”

Judith Gertler [00:46:42] Can you tell us anything about the rescue of, uh, Ralph Melville from Maroon Bells and whether you were involved in that?

Jack DePagter [00:46:49] Yeah, he was getting married, I guess. He had an accident, broke his arm, and, well, we took him down.

Judith Gertler [00:46:59] Well, tell us a little more about the incident. Do you remember?

Jack DePagter [00:47:01] No. To be frank with you, I can tell you that I have helped with 18 dead ones. I’ve been with the Mountain Rescue for 30 years. Um, 18 dead ones just on the Bells. There was a summer, I forgot which summer it was, and it was Sunday afternoon. And then my wife would say “Some trouble again” almost every Sunday afternoon. There was that one summer. People were just… It was difficult. We went to the Forest Service, and we said, “You should put a warning out there. Why don’t you mark down, uh, you know that people that are not experienced should not climb those mountains.” And then, of course, the forester would say, call “Jack DePagter,” you know, “because he knows more about it.” Not that I know everything, however, I would say “Don’t go there because I hate like heck to go up there again after you.” It’s not worth it. And if you don’t make it, don’t feel embarrassed. See, I didn’t promise you the top. I promised you a safe return. Um, it’s going to be there next year. And we still follow that philosophy. See, now, last week we went to Crested Butte and back. Ten people of our group. We had a fantastic trip. Now this coming Sunday, we’re going to Bross, Lincoln and Democrat. They’re three fourteeners. We climbed La Plata about a month ago, fourteener, and a good bunch of people, 17, and all in good shape. Of course, we know our way up, and some didn’t make it. I said, “No big deal. Don’t worry about it. You sit down here. You promise, don’t move. On the way back, we pick you up.” And we have a fantastic group of people. Fantastic people. If not, they wouldn’t come here because, well, they like the mountains and they like to share it and that’s why they advertise it.

Judith Gertler [00:48:58] How do people find out about the Colorado Mountain Club?

Jack DePagter [00:49:03] Gee, I don’t know. We went to the Chamber of Commerce, and they call us once in a while. Uh, however, we don’t want to be a guide service because nowadays everybody’s suing everybody in case anything goes wrong. Then they would say, “Well, you know, it’s the Colorado Mountain Club.” We don’t do that. Members, anyone that’s a member in our group is allowed to take a guest. Somebody comes from Chicago, and he said, “Oh, my cousin or nephew is coming from Chicago. Where are we going to go? Shall we go to Pearl Pass? Is it okay if she comes along, or he comes?” I said, sure. And if they enjoy it, we’d say, “Why don’t you become a member?” So we have members in Florida and all over the place, and they come here in summertime and enjoy it.

Judith Gertler [00:49:53] Is there anything else about Mountain Rescue or Colorado Mountain Club you’d like to talk about?

Jack DePagter [00:49:56] Fantastic, fantastic organization, Mountain Rescue.

Judith Gertler [00:50:00] How does it, how is it put together and how does it work?

Jack DePagter [00:50:03] I really cannot give you, because, you know, after 30 years, they, I said, “Well, thank you very much. I think I’ve come now to an age. I’ve done my share.” So the organization, of course, is still here. And then they practice with helicopters. We did everything on foot. When, when we heard somebody was hurt up on the Bells, we just walked up. Spent many nights there with Fred Braun because he was elected then president from the Mountain Rescue. And said, “Okay, Glen Brand is going to come.” And Melville came along, and we all worked together.

Judith Gertler [00:50:43] It’s a wonderful service.

Jack DePagter [00:50:45] Well thank you. I agree, I agree.

Judith Gertler [00:50:47] Just a little personal information. You’ve mentioned your wife several times. Can you tell us what her name is and when you were married and what your daughter’s name is? And…

Jack DePagter [00:50:56] Okay.

Judith Gertler [00:50:57] …when she was born.

Jack DePagter [00:50:58] I knew my wife before the war, from school, we went to the same church. Matter of fact, I was in the same class with her sister. That’s why I’m, that’s how I met my wife. Then the war broke out. I escaped to France. Then when I was discharged, I studied hotel school, went to Switzerland to practice, and she was interested also. So I said, “Why don’t we go to Switzerland?” So she worked in a hotel, in a certain hotel. I worked in another hotel and in summer resorts, winter resorts, two years, for two seasons. So four, four actually seasons we made and practiced in Europe, in Switzerland. So when I was working in Switzerland, and Dad talked me into to go to America, he said, “Why don’t you go for a young guy?” He said, “You’re capable of working hard enough.” And he said, “And if you don’t like it, come back. There’s a boat. You can come back.” Anneke didn’t like it. Her name is Anneke. She didn’t like it. She said, “Yeah, now you’re going to go to America, huh, and leave me here.” I said, “Now, look,” I said, “you know, I’m going to see if there’s a future.” Well, she didn’t like it too much and broke off from the boyfriend, and good for her. And I went to America anyway. So when I was here, we had a guest who was going to go to Holland. I said, “Would you do me a favor, try to contact her?” And apparently he did, and I never heard anything about it because she had a boyfriend. However, I think that was finished, and I heard through somebody else that, uh… I had bought the house then. Then she gave a letter to that person who gave it to me, sort of, um, wishy washy. It was not official. And I wrote her. I said, “Now that we both are a little older and grown up, why don’t you come to America?” And she felt like it. And so then we corresponded, were steady, by letters. And so I went to the immigration authorities because I was not an American yet. And I said, you know, “What does my wife, my future wife, has to do to come here?” She said, “As long as you’re not married, she will be on the waiting list. It takes, count on five years, unless you’re smart: go to Holland and marry her. Then she can come in as your legal wife.” So I borrowed money. That’s what I did. She came here in ’52.

Judith Gertler [00:53:36] And she’s been your partner ever since.

Jack DePagter [00:53:38] Forever. Yep. And we have a daughter. She’s 37, born and raised in Aspen. An Aspenite.

Judith Gertler [00:53:45] And her name is…?

Jack DePagter [00:53:46] Yasmine. Yasmine. And she’s a sweetheart. I’m very proud of her. And her heart and soul is in the tourist business. They’re taking over the hotel and doing a fantastic job. She happened to marry a wonderful young man. He’s from Vermont. His heart and soul is in it too, and it’s a lot of, a lot out of the lottery. I could not have asked for anything better.

Judith Gertler [00:54:09] Can you tell us what your daughter’s husband’s name is?

Jack DePagter [00:54:12] Jack Simmons.

Judith Gertler [00:54:14] Can you say it in a full sentence? His name is…

Jack DePagter [00:54:16] Oh, sure. Jack Simmons is originally from Vermont, came here, his brother came here and worked for us for a winter. They fell in love with each other. And my son-in-law’s name is Jack Simmons from Vermont.

Judith Gertler [00:54:30] Thank you. Looking back on your life here, your long life here in Aspen, what have, what have been some of the greatest pleasures about living here and working here?

Jack DePagter [00:54:48] Number one, I like people, and I enjoy the mountains. And I ski. First years we were here, we did not ski, not much. We didn’t have the money; I didn’t have the skis. And we were building up our business, and well, we, then we started to pick it up and still enjoying it. Every Thursday we went with our guests to the Highlands and had a picnic, which we really enjoyed. And it was good advertising for us, good advertising for the Highlands. And it’s a family mountain, as you know, and it was a good atmosphere and that’s what we were after. I mean, a little selfish. However, those people, our guests, enjoyed it, and we enjoyed having them. And the Aspen Highlands were smart enough, and they said, “You come every Thursday, I’ll give you complimentary tickets.” So we had a complimentary ticket. So it worked both ways, and it was fun.

Judith Gertler [00:55:52] I don’t have any more questions, but I’m wondering now that we’ve been talking for a while, do you have anything else that you’d like to add or anything you’d like to mention about your life here, about early Aspen that we haven’t talked about?

Jack DePagter [00:56:09] No, to be frank with you, uh, I’ve always liked it here. Not the beginning. I have to be honest, I thought this was awful. Looked like Russia. And, however, the people were so fantastic. I enjoyed the people. And that was the most important thing for me. I was here alone in the first years, and people were just wonderful. And it was a good understanding and a good atmosphere. You could see that those youngsters put their heart and soul in Aspen. They wanted to do this, and I want to help with that. And it’s still here. It’s still here. I know new people that came here, and their heart and soul is here. Unfortunately, as I said before, they cannot live here. And I think that’s sad because those, in my eyes, are the real people, real Aspen people. I can give you an example. You know, I have a poor back and I get acupuncture. Now, the young man, the doctor, Doctor Wilson, he had a heck of a time coming here. He couldn’t find a place. Commuted back and forth with Basalt. He’s the one that volunteers for this and helps there. And I can see his heart and soul is in Aspen. Now he managed to get an apartment. And those are the ones, in my eyes, that, that’s Aspen. That’s the base. And there are so many. You talk to some waitresses or lift operators and they say, ‘Yeah, we have to go. We cannot afford to live here.” That’s sad. And I think that’s very, very sad. I wish there was a change somewhere.

Judith Gertler [00:58:01] Good. I think this is…

Jack DePagter [00:58:02] I think I’ve talked too much, haven’t I?

Judith Gertler [00:58:04] I don’t think you’ve talked too much. I think this would be a good place to stop if you’re ready. Does this feel like a comfortable place to stop?

Jack DePagter [00:58:10] That’s fine. Sure. Unless you have questions.

Judith Gertler [00:58:13] Oh, here’s another question.

Jack DePagter [00:58:14] Okay.

Judith Gertler [00:58:14] Um, I can’t read this. Friction. Oh. Um, this is a good question. In the early days, do you remember friction between the old timers and the newcomers? And… that’s the first question.

Jack DePagter [00:58:35] Okay.

Judith Gertler [00:58:35] You described that it was very easy to come and to become integrated into the town. Did you experience or were you aware of any resentments or frictions between the two groups?

Jack DePagter [00:58:45] Very little. Very little. There were some people here, you know, Aspen has a lot of Yugoslavs and Italians from Val d’Aosta, and they lived all right. However, some thought that the newer ones, us, especially the Europeans, they thought, they had the feeling we were going to take over. But when they discovered that our heart and soul was here, and we helped with this and we volunteered for that, they slowly, and not many, don’t misunderstand me, not many accepted us. And in the contrary. Because many people, you know, that we’ve known for years and years, over 40 years, then they say, “Gee, you remember the olden days?” and you can see that they really enjoyed it because they realized Aspen was making progress, because there was not much in Aspen.

Judith Gertler [00:59:50] Jack, I have one more question. Thinking back to the late ’40s when a lot of people were coming here, it was right after the war, and there were a lot of Germans who were in Aspen. Was there any problem with or any difficulty with Germans integrating into American society in Aspen, or were there any, were you aware of any feelings of people who were living here toward, toward people who had come from Germany?

Jack DePagter [01:00:29] No. To be frank with you, there were a lot of Europeans, and those old timers were actually also Europeans. They came from France, Val d’Aosta, Italy, or those Yugoslavs. And so basically, they were the same, in the same situation as our newer generation. No, I cannot say that. Um, once in a while, if they used to have a beer or a party here or a beer up or whatever they call it, and when they went too noisy, and they made a lot of noise, once in a while they would make a remark, “Hey, uh, cool it, huh? You’re not in Germany.” And then most of our people, we had a lot of Austrians, Norwegians, I was Dutch, um, you know, we all realized that… a lot of Swiss, many Swiss…uh, we all realized that we are in a new country, and, uh, there is no such a thing as “Okay, you’re from Ireland and you’re from Spain and you’re from Russia. And I’m much better because I’m from France.” No, that wasn’t there. In the contrary, we got along very, very well.

Judith Gertler [01:01:44] And the war itself and the countries that people were from didn’t, didn’t play an influence on…

Jack DePagter [01:01:50] No. No. I think we had 52 Swiss families living here then. A lot of Swiss, and of course the Swiss were neutral. And no, I cannot say that. Once in a while, as the bartender, I had to say, “Now cool it. We don’t operate it that way.” Because I remember one incident. It was a gentleman (Europeans, they do not use a lot of ice), so he was asking for a drink and I put some ice in it. And he said to me in German with a cuss word, “What do you think I am, a glacier?” I said, “Your mouth is like a glacier. You’re now in America. You act exactly the same as all the others. All you have to say, I don’t care for much ice.’” Now, that was one of those remarks. I had it once more. We lived right next to the old lift. And then when it grew a little bit, and so the people put their skis in front because there only was one chair. They had to stand in line and wait. And I remember, um, we had three guests standing in line, and there was an instructor from Germany, and they said, “Oh, Down! Down, down, down! And I got angry, I opened up to her and said “Heil Hitler.” And that cooled it off, and everybody in line {clapping, applause sound}. Now that was the only nasty accident that I caused. But for the rest, no.

Judith Gertler [01:03:33] Okay. I feel like you’ve given us so much. If there’s… Excuse me, one more question. Would you tell us the story of standing in line and ordering hamburgers?

Jack DePagter [01:03:54] Yeah. Okay. Howard Awrey was on the Sundeck. He managed the Sundeck, ran it all. Next to us was a Swiss family, the Wirths. Still here. She passed away, and for some reason, he was removed from the mountain. Not the Swiss. Howard Awrey. The Swiss got that job, and we happened to live all right next to each other. So when he took over, Paul Wirth took over, he did a very good job on the Sundeck, Howard Awrey was going to go in competition with the Sundeck, which I personally think is a laugh. I mean, there’s no, no… How can the Sundeck go in competition with a little restaurant down here? Anyway, our neighbors’ was a little shack there. Two kids had bought that, caught on fire, burned down to the ground, and he got very, very angry because he was going to go in competition with the Sundeck. So what he did early in the morning, he would make hamburgers, fix hamburgers for $0.25 with a basket and go in the line before the people would go up for lunch. He was selling the hamburgers for a quarter, and it was sort of a joke in town. They said, “Oh, now he’s trying to beat the Sundeck.” And they said, “How ridiculous.” So nothing came out of it. It didn’t last that long, but there was a little funny feeling there, and everybody laughed it off. Now he’s standing in line with hamburgers. {laughter}

Greg Poschman (camera) [01:05:41] Do you remember what Pete Seibert, why Pete Seibert went to Vail?

Jack DePagter [01:05:44] No, I don’t know that.

Greg Poschman (camera) [01:05:46] Well, he had the same comment as to the hamburger stand at the base of Number One. Made him decide to go look for a new ski resort.

Jack DePagter [01:05:53] Oh, is that right? Oh, I didn’t know that. No, I didn’t know that.

Judith Gertler [01:05:58] Okay. Does anyone else have any more questions?

Kevin Padden (sound) [01:06:01] Maybe contrasting that, those attitudes and newcomers and whatnot in the early days. What about today?

Judith Gertler [01:06:10] That’s a good question. Can you compare and contrast the attitudes toward new, the attitude that people in town had toward newcomers in the ’50s… ’40s, ’50s, maybe ’60s… to what their attitudes are today toward people who are coming into town?

Jack DePagter [01:06:38] Of course, I cannot judge for everybody. My personal feeling is if you have youngsters here, new ones that come here and they want to be part of Aspen, they’re in, they belong to us. However, if you have some person who builds a $24 million home and acts that they have it all or know it all, in my eyes, they are not from Aspen. Now, if you could call that friction, I always say, wait a couple of weeks, they go back to New York or Chicago. So, personally it doesn’t bother me that much. However, I can see that a lot of people resent that. They say, “Yeah, we have to travel to Carbondale every day. Why don’t we get it? We are the ones that operate the lift. I’m the nurse, and we have to move there and there, or I’m the school teacher.” And let’s face it, that’s the core of Aspen. We need those people. And if you have some snobs, and they say, “Oh no, we have to do this.” And yes, there is resentment. It depends on the people. A good number of rich people belong to Aspen, too. But I would say those that look down upon the help or whatever it is, they need them too, to clean their houses, but they don’t see that because they have a lot of money and they say we can do whatever we want to. Now, I don’t know if I made the right statement, but generally when you talk to the youngsters here, young couples or young ladies or young men, and they want to be in, in Aspen and be part of it, I can see that they resent that. With a reason.

Judith Gertler [01:08:35] What about the old timers? It’s probably the same thing you’re saying.

Jack DePagter [01:08:39] Yes. Yeah. The old, old timers, people our age, no, I don’t think so, we feel that way. They, uh… No, in the contrary. I would say we realize that we need waitresses. Who’s going to clean the toilets? Who’s going to operate the lifts? And we have many lifts, as you know. Uh, who’s going to drive the buses? No, in the contrary. But of course, that’s my opinion. But all in all, no, I don’t think there’s a resentment. There is a resentment from those that are very wealthy and look down upon the help.

Judith Gertler [01:09:24] My question really was, and you don’t have to answer it again. My question was, do you think that the old timers resent those who are rude and who just use Aspen, um, also?

Jack DePagter [01:09:47] No. There are a good number of older people here, come from New Jersey or wherever they came from. They fit in. They volunteer for a church or the Historical Society, whatever it is. And even if they’ve only lived here five or 6 or 10 years, no, in the contrary, we’re very, very pleased that we have people like that.

Judith Gertler [01:10:09] Good. Okay. I think we will stop. I want to thank you very much. And you’ve given us a lot of information. It’s been a pleasure.

Jack DePagter [01:10:19] Throw it away.

Judith Gertler [01:10:21] Thank you. Jack. They’re going to have to get this off of you before you can leave.

Jack DePagter [01:10:28] Thank you. Did it work? Yeah.