Gretl Uhl

Interviewee:   Gretl Uhlm     Interviewer:   Judith Gertler

July 11, 1995     C137 – 1995.048.0001

 

Gretl I want to thank you for agreeing to participate in this project and for helping us to learn more about your life in Aspen and about life in Aspen in general.  As we begin, I wonder if you have any thoughts or feelings about making this tape?

I like to make it.  I think it should be…I think our ideas should be really preserved for the future.  We have lived here, which is a time that we cherish.  It has changed so tremendous, we have changed with it, most of it we like, some things we don’t.  But this is the most terrific town. I wouldn’t want to live any place else, that’s for sure.

 

Let’s begin.

Ok

 

What is your full name now?

My full name is Margaret Uhl.

 

Is Gretl a nickname?

Short for Margaret.

 

Have you been known as Gretl your entire life?

My entire life.

 

What was your maiden name?

Hartl, a tongue twister, Gretl Hartl.

 

And the date of your birth?

It was November 3, 1923.

 

And where were you born?

In Germany.

 

What part of Germany?

In Batouse, but I’m from Partenkirchen, just was born there.

 

The town that you lived in, what part of Germany is that in?

It’s Bavaria and it’s the southern most part.  Our mountainside is still German or Bavarian; the back side is Austrian already.

 

Let’s talk a little bit about some of your background and growing up before we meet you in Aspen.  Could you tell us a little something about your childhood in Germany and you early experiences skiing as a child?

Yeah, I was very lucky, my parents had a restaurant within the Olympic ski stadium in Garmisch-Partenkirchen.  I was exposed to skiing at an early age, so on my sixth birthday I received my first pair of skis and after hitting the champion hills in front of us my skiing consisted mainly of schussing, straight down and I have always liked skiing ever since.

 

Do you remember what those first skis looked like?

Sure, they were wooden skis, no edges naturally.  Just a very simple leather binding, skis bent up in front.  Ski poles with very big baskets, but it worked.

 

And you said you liked to go right down, straight down?

I loved schussing, just loved it.

 

Did the rest of your family ski also?

My father skied, my mother hated it, so did my sister.

 

And anything else about your early childhood, your young years as a girl in Germany?

Yeah, I was…again it was lucky to grow up actually outside of town.  We had…our walk was about a half an hour to school, summer and winter.  Our neighborhood, the closest neighbor was about ten minutes from our house and she still is my very closest oldest friend, Laura Ehler a wonderful person.  Held for a whole lifetime.  It was a family of nine and my sister and myself envied it, envied them because we always wanted to have more children around the house, but no luck.

 

And she was in Germany?

She lives in Garmisch yeah.

 

You just mentioned that your parents had a restaurant near the…or in the Olympic..

It was in the Olympic stadium.

 

It was in the stadium.  What was that restaurant like?

It was a coffee…it was not a cafeteria, it was a regular coffee “Hutl”.  It was a big terrace, it’s beautiful in the Swiss style.  My parents had it from 1923 until 1939 and after my parents were absolute 100% anti-Natzi, they had a terrific hard time.  My father was drafted early so the house could be confiscated, he wasn’t in the way, my mother had to fight the whole battle by herself.  It was quite a hard time for my parents, my mother actually had a nervous breakdown because of it.  Then they never went back into the restaurant business, this was it.  But it certainly was a…what we called a goat group because it was right on the entrance to the Partnaclom which is a gorge and the end of the parking lot for all the cars, the garden looking into the ski stadium couldn’t have been a more ideal location for a business.

 

I’d like to ask you more about the restaurant, but I’m very interested in what you were saying about the War.  You were a teenager during the time?

Yeah

I’m wondering if you want to say anything else about your experiences during the War?

Being in Garmisch, which was so far removed from the War really, the major hurt was really to lose so many of my schoolmates in their best age was terrible.  It really hit home.  Otherwise naturally the restriction of food, it was so poor and so terrible one cannot imagine anymore.  This is where I always say, no matter what my house will be filled with good food at all time and it is.

 

Let’s talk a little bit about the restaurant, your parents started it the year you were born, 1923, so you grew up with your parents in the restaurant.  Did you participate at all, did you help, did you play there, what did you do?

We weren’t allowed to, except in 1936 when we had the Olympic games, which was right there in front of us.  It was the first time my parents allowed me to take in the “bones” which are the orders of the waitresses and so on.  That was my checking point, I did this for the 13 days and I loved it.  I always loved to be connected, it was just…In Europe it really wasn’t my family in a period, it wasn’t allowed, your not allowed to work in it because we seemed to be underfoot and that was just out.

 

Do you think by watching your parents in the restaurant and did your mother cook?

No, she couldn’t, my mother couldn’t even cook.  I think all my mother could make in her whole life and she never tried any better was some goulash and a pound cake and she left it at that.

 

How do you think your love of cooking began?

Because I wasn’t allowed to, I just wanted to so badly.  I enjoyed so much working with food and with my hands and I enjoyed it so much to see people eating it and enjoying it.

 

So if we move forward just a little bit, it’s 1948 you married Sepp Uhl your husband, what is his full name, or what was his full name?

Joseph Uhl.

 

And Sepp was a nickname?

Just short for Joseph.

 

And how did the two of you meet?

I was invited by Eric Windish who is now supervising Vail, who was Nordic Master in Germany to a ski instructors party and it was the very first ski instructors party I had been to.  I met Sepp there and I must say, we just liked each other.  But it took a whole year of courting to convince me that this was the man I wanted to marry, because I had been engaged to somebody from Friedberg who was a architect and the absolute favorite of my parents and here all of a sudden comes Sepp.  He was absolutely not accepted and that was…we have a marriage picture book, it shows very clearly in it, why we came to the United States.

 

Gretl I want to come back to that, I realize I skipped something very important and I want to go back to your early relationship with Sepp and his skiing background and then the marriage.  But I realize I forgot to ask you about your involvement in skiing as you got older, so can you fill that in for us?

It was the very first time, by accident really, in 1939.  Somebody didn’t show up, I was standing up there close to the starting gate watching the whole procedure and they said, so and so hasn’t shown up, please put that number around you and then go.  I thought, oh my God, all I can do is go straight!  So I won it, that’s my first experience, but later then in 1941 I have all the sheets all the research sheets, everything with me here.  I started racing against Austria mainly because we didn’t have much choice during the War.  The first time we came Internationally in 1951 Garmisch hosted the first International Winter Sports Week and that’s all of the time I met Stein Erikson, Zena Cologh(?).  Our ski club Partenkichen* gave a wonderful banquet and this was the time I was introduced to all these men.

 

So you began racing in 1949 or something like that?

Actually, in ’41.

 

In ’41 I meant, I’m sorry and then now bring us back to meeting Sepp and it sounds like it was a mutual attraction between the two of you?  You both liked each other?

When we decided to get married it upset not just my parents, but actually half of the town.  I received and I still have them, I received two anonymous letters saying that people are disappointed in me and so on.  I couldn’t understand it, anyway we went ahead…

 

What was the reason people were so upset about your getting married?  Do you want to talk about it?

Sepp he was a ski instructor, I wasn’t allowed to marry a ski instructor and here I ended up being one myself.

 

Were ski instructors looked down on there?

Well they were kind of womanizers and so on and so forth, not to be trusted and it wasn’t a profession really at that time.

 

And was his background in racing also before he started teaching?

No, no, Sepp had gone to the Art Academy in Strasbourg originally.  He is quite an artist and he became a ski instructor because he worked immediately for the American Army when he came back out of the War.  And it was mainly for the food at that time because food was scarce so you had to do something which brought food.  That’s how his skiing profession really started.

 

And that was…and he was an artist by heart?

Definitely.

 

Where did you live when you first married him?

We exchanged…my parents have a beautiful house in Garmisch and we needed an apartment.  There was an empty apartment at the top of our house, so we took our two places we had and asked our parents, asked my parents if we could rent that place, which we did.  At this time I was working in an office and the client I had was being from Hamburg.  He was so nice he wanted to give me something special for my wedding and I ask him to get counter to measure for our electricity so we would be independent from our parents.  Because whatever we did, we wanted to pay for and just be regular renters in our house which we were.

 

Soon after that, your daughter was born.

Renada was born two years after we got married, she was born in 1950 and she was born in our house, because I wanted to be out of the hospital. I couldn’t stand it to be in a hospital room with four or three other ladies who were in labor.  So I just…after everybody left, I went quietly out of the hospital took the bus home and had my baby at home.

 

Did you have any help there, any…?

I called a midwife on the way home, before I entered the bus I called a midwife and she was so nice to come.  And my Doctor was on vacation at the time, but he did come the next day.  Anyway Renada was born in the house.

 

Was that unusual in Germany in those days?

To certain families it was unusual.

 

I won’t ask about how your parents felt about that.

They couldn’t believe it.

 

Not too long after your daughter was born, you came to the United States and to Aspen.  What happened in between?

I told you we have a whole book about that.  My parents disliking Sepp the way they did, made life a little hard for us and luckily Billy Schiffler, Tony Woerndle who also came to Aspen and my husband were close friends.  Billy left in ’49, Tony Woerndle in ’51 and we wrote back and forth and the American counsel in Munich who was also close friend of ours, Mr. Bakke, he said “Gretl go, do it now, you will not regret it.”  So we made arrangements to come and left on the Maritania, a British ship to New York and took the train out to Glenwood Springs.  We were picked up in Glenwood Springs by Tony Woerndle and Carl Hoffman and brought to Aspen and that’s it.

 

Before we find out what your first impressions of Aspen were, what kinds of things did they tell you in the letter that you wrote back and forth, about this town in Colorado?

To me it seemed that everybody ate only elk and deer which didn’t agree with Sepp at all.  He said “There must a butcher there, there must be something normal there.”  Naturally it was, it was Beck and Bishop, but still most people lived from elk and deer.  Anyway I imagined it about West I must say I wasn’t disappointed, the roads were not paved when we got picked up.  The town was…the houses, they halfways falling down, lots of shacks around.  I mean it was culture-shock, the first few days.  But on the other hand I was so glad that nobody could call me, that nobody said, “Oh, Renada is crying.”  Or, “What did you do today?”  “You cannot hang the laundry out.”  You cannot do this or you cannot do that.  It was just wonderful.

 

So you were really on your own here?

Yeah.

 

You described Aspen as being very different from the town you had grown up in.  And what about the social atmosphere as you got to know it a little bit, in the early Fifties, what were people like to the newcomers from Germany?

They were so generous, you cannot believe it, in every way.  They helped and that includes Mrs. Shaw.

And who is Mrs. Shaw?

Mrs. Shaw is the lady who owned most of the houses and we rented the first year the house on Main Street from Mrs. Shaw.  She…our next house were the Bresnitz’s, Kurt and Laurie Bresnitz,

who were Alpine Jeweler.  They were my first neighbors, everybody was so helpful, from lending us things until our whole stuff came, to showing us how to do things here, how to proceed.  It was unbelievable, I mean it still is.  I don’t see any difference there, people are plain generous and very loving and very giving.

 

Anything else about what Aspen looked like in those days?  Did you find Beck and Bishop eventually?  The market that is where the Wheeler is, in the Wheeler?

There was another one very close to us, which was the Mesa Store and Elizabeth, I forgot her last name now, owned it so it was convenient to go over there.  But at Beck and Bishop there was beef and I came in with a piece of paper, writing down everything I wanted because my pronunciation isn’t right.  So she was so nice, took that piece of paper and went with me through the whole aisles, showing me where it is and what it is called.  Also I was a little bit apart, because we couldn’t get good sausage or good salami or yogurt or good cheese.  It was all just American cheese, hamburger, white bread, but Beck and Bishop ordered, he was so nice, he ordered certain things.  He said, “I don’t know if we can sell it.”  But I said, “Anything good can be sold.”  And he really improved from it.  Every shopping, from one shopping to the next, we found what we needed.

 

In 1953 when you arrived, the skiing industry was still in its infancy, although it had begun in the late Forties.

Very much so.

 

Can you describe what you remember about what the Mountain (Aspen Mtn.) looked like and what the Ski School was like at the beginning when you first got here?

That first weekend of ’53 when it got toward Christmas, at the height of it, there were 17 instructors teaching and maybe a few helping hands.  But basically 17 that took care of the customers, it was very easy.  We had our meetings at the Hotel Jerome and our meeting place was right across from it and behind, which was Elli’s.  We congregated in the afternoon in the blue room, that was fun.  The Mountain (Aspen Mtn.) itself was not groomed, there was no such things.  Eventually there was a packing crew, but we always had a good ski patrol right from the beginning.  And again, everybody was so helpful, they couldn’t have been nicer.  They did a lot of private skiing in January, just ski, ski, ski.  Bell Mountain, oh I had to learn to ski in deep snow.  That was something I was not used to.

 

Did you also learn how to turn a little, rather than schussing down?

Yes, but in the deep snow I still went rather straight.  Then turning…you have to…if you come from Europe, you are used to ice and hard conditions, especially as a racer, it’s a prepared slope, it’s a hard slope.  You had to sharpen your edges constantly, there was no need to sharpen the edges here.  It was just like butter to ski over that terrain, just beautiful.

 

How old was your daughter when she first learned to ski?

Renada was five.  I didn’t want to start her any earlier, I was believed that children should at least be able to put their ski clothes on by themselves, before you drag them out there.

I know that you have taught in the Aspen Ski School, but did you have any jobs in Aspen before you began teaching?

Yes, I did.  My English was very spotty, I could say verses like, “Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.”  Which doesn’t help very much, but I wanted to improve it and there were not very many jobs available for someone who has a child.  So I worked in the Hillside Lodge as a maid for 8 months and made 42 beds a day.  I still cannot imagine anymore how I did it, up and down the stairs, Renada on the left side, the vacuum cleaner on the right.  But I was so darn ambitious, I wanted to do it and I wanted to do it right.  I got 78 cents an hour, so that was the beginning.

 

And then after that your son was born in 1954 and what is his name?

It’s Anton, Tony for short.

 

And now you have two children and maybe we could talk just a little bit about what it was like raising children in Aspen in the Fifties and Sixties?

Well we had by that time a few friends who had children the same age and so we…a lot of time we got together in our yard or out in some of our future parks really.  We hiked a lot, when the children were little, we put the rucksack on Mary Hayes and Gloria Schippert and Helen Peterson, all these people we just did a lot with our children.  We had wonderful summers.

 

Was it a good environment to raise children?

Very good, excellent and we did not coddle them, we let the kids run.  There was no reason to think anything could happen to them.  We didn’t think that way period, even when I think today. When they stayed out the first time camping and we couldn’t sleep because we couldn’t think that there was an 8 year old camping out there someplace, we don’t know the exact location.  It wasn’t a comfortable feeling, but this is how the kids grew up and learned.

 

And did you live at the home where you live now, at 320 West Hallam?

Yeah, we lived here and loved it.

 

The kids would walk into town and…?

The school was just down the road, so it was just very convenient.  We are always walking, we are old walkers.

 

Anything else about raising children in Aspen, their experiences that you might want to mention?

Well they naturally they got into the typical 1960 trouble with the drugs, with marijuana and so on, but lucky for us my son had such a violent reaction that he had to be brought to the emergency room and I think it did it for life.  He knows that he’s allergic to all these things.

 

That was lucky.

Very lucky, he was 14 at the time.

 

So even in those days…in the Sixties of course.

Yeah.

 

There was those opportunities here for kids?

Oh yeah, very much.

 

Alright let’s back up a little bit and talk about your career, when you were teaching skiing.  I believe you began about 1955 is that correct?

That’s correct, yeah.

 

Your son was about a year old?

Right.

 

And let’s talk a little bit about the Ski School in those days.  First of all, I wonder whether there were any other women teaching?

Yeah, there was Sarah Sabbatini and there were a few other ladies in there.  But they didn’t stay, I stayed and I was probably…I loved to teach, I really loved it until the day I stopped.  It was one of my favorite occupations, to see how people improved and having a good time.  Usually I taught in the morning and we had a good time skiing in the afternoon.  This way the people really and truly improved.  Plus I had…I mean once I had the people I had the returning customers until I stopped.

 

Did you teach private lessons in those days or were there classes?

No, I taught classes first and then I was…I don’t remember the year but it must have been about ’56 around there, ’56, ’57, I was the first woman teacher who was allowed…taught, I mean really fast classes, expert classes.  That really was a thrill.

 

How did they…how did the Ski School, Friedl Pfeifer was in charge…

Yeah

 

And Sepp was also teaching?

Sepp was teaching, yeah he was always in the upper classes.

 

What kind of instruction or clinics did they give you as instructors, so that you could teach according to the method that was prevalent in those days?

Well we had the rotation technique, which naturally was pretty much opposite what we skied when we came from Europe.  But I liked it, it was fun teaching, you made the widest turns, elegant looking.  Sepp never quite changed, he might have moved his arms, but his legs went old, the old back way.  No I didn’t mind the rotation technique.

 

And they, did they have clinics in those days?

There were clinics every beginning of December and pretty soon I was group leader.  I enjoyed very much teaching instructors, they are quite a few still, working in the Ski School who started with me.

 

Do you remember any name?

Well, Steen Ganzel and Martha Madsen, two who come to mind immediately.  They were…anyway they were the ones I remember immediately.

 

Any stories about teaching skiing in the Fifties and the Sixties?  Maybe about the clients or the equipment or what happened on the slopes or anything like that?

Yeah, I had a lot of stuff happening.  I had one lady who, a well known lady in Aspen really, who was just before the divorce, didn’t want to have a divorce and said, (that was a private lesson) and said, “If I could just break my leg, so that my husband has to care for me, I would happily do it.”  And she didn’t even have to try, we went into Spar Gulch and as we got into Spar Gulch there were some groups from the ski, snowcats and she didn’t get out of the way of one of them and did break her leg.  And I have never seen anything like this because she was not unhappy about it, she cried, but she was not unhappy about it.  It was kind of unusual.  Then I had a class once, all psychiatrists from Chicago.  It was a interesting class, they didn’t fit together really in skiing, but it was quite a conversation going in this group.

 

Did they analyze their skiing and interpret what they were doing?

I stay…it was very funny because several of them were psychiatrists and one was a medicine student, the son of a very famous surgeon in Chicago.  He was 23 years old and he didn’t fit at all into the class, tall guy, heavy guy, but because he was that famous son, the son of a famous surgeon, the other gentlemen wanted me to keep him in class.  So we had to do simple terrain, like One (Lift One) and Two Lift, he fell and he unhooked his shoulder, he dislocated his shoulder.  Screamed, hit the ground and as he hit the ground he said, “I’m going to die, God bless America.”,  and that made me so mad I…in the meantime the ski patrol came, he didn’t take any Demerol, he didn’t take any medication and when I think of it, if I would do this today I would be sued, but at that time I took the guys…I pulled him up let the ski patrol stand back plugged his nose and in a moment he opened his mouth I stuffed his mouth with snow and he swallowed it.  I gave him such a lecture about being such a sissy and to my upset I found out afterwards that the guy had a trick shoulder.  If he would have said anything about that, that could have been fixed right on the spot.  So next day he came over to the meeting place with the shoulder in a sling and he gave me one of these beautiful Herbert Bayer snowflake pins saying in a nice little letter, “You made a man out of me.”

 

So I bet there is a lot of these stories that you have over the years?

Oh, I could write a book.

 

Anything else come to mind?  Any….

No I don’t want to really…

 

Ok, As you think back over your ten or eleven years of seasons as a ski instructor in the Aspen Ski School, how did this School change over the years?

Well it after…you know Fred (Iselin) went out to Buttermilk, when Friedl (Pfeifer) and Fred (Iselin) split up, Fred went out to Buttermilk…

 

Fred Iselin

Fred Iselin yeah, he went out there to create a new ski school and after some back and forth I went with him under the condition that I could ski somedays over on Aspen Mtn. because I didn’t want to lose my touch.  But I loved to work under Fred (Iselin), he was a very…he inspired people.  He was a fun guy, he was just something which is very rare now, special personality and when I think that he always looked over to Highlands and said, “Look at this Mickey Mouse Mountain.”  and then two years later he is the Director of the ski school over there, that’s funny.

 

Did you and Sepp have a chance to ski when you weren’t working, did you ski together?

We rarely skied together, because we were both too much…we were too ambitious.  When we skied down, one wanted to beat the other one down the mountain and sometimes it was too close to a collision.  So we decided not to ski too much with…until the very end, we didn’t ski much together.

 

Did you ski with your kids?

I skied with the kids, but they were pretty good skiers too.

 

And then I also read something about your involvement as a professional instructor?  What was that?

Well there was a time, the Southern Rocky Mountain Ski Instructors Association was voting for a new director and we never had a woman in it, so I got up and said, “I think it’s high time we have a lady in this group, we have already quite a few women instructors who are in Colorado and I think our voice has to be heard.”  So naturally they say, “Well why don’t you do it?”  They brought it to a vote and it went over 100%.  So for three years I was one of the lady Directors of Southern Rocky Mountain and changed some of the laws because women still had to go through an examination for a whole week, writing a thesis over 5,000 words, which is like a doctor work and which is history itself.  It was too expensive for most of us.

 

That was different from men, or was it for everybody?

No, it was for everybody, but it really was too expensive, staying over there a whole week, really having an examination like you, like a State exam for something special and very strict, very hard.  I thought any instructor who goes to an examination, who goes through ski school clinics ahead of time is very well prepared and most of them really know what they’re doing and a good examiner (and they are good) can tell after two days if a guy is good or not.  If he can explain himself, if he’s fun, if he can make a good combination teacher and entertainer really in a way.  And so now it’s a weekend which helps a tremendous amount I think.  But I enjoyed being part of this group, I learned, I met so many interesting people and this year for example, when we had the get together of all of the old-timers from the PSIA, which was here in Aspen, it was really nice to see Doug Pfeifer and Eric Windish.  All these old-timers who really had something to say in the creation of American skiing.

 

And a lot of that happened here?

Yeah, here and also Sun Valley.  There were other areas too.

 

What prompted you to leave the Ski School as an instructor?

I am quite an impulsive person.  I was booked up for the whole season really and I had heard through the grapevine that the Ski Corp. (Aspen Skiing Co.) intends to put a restaurant up into Tourtelotte Park.  So, in February of ’66, exactly on the 23rd, I asked if I could be excused from the meeting place and just quick run up to Darcy (DRC) Brown (Jr.) and said, “The next restaurant you are building, I am so interested I really would love to run it.”  And he was so taken aback, he said, “Why would you want to do this and what is your background really?”  I told him I grew up in the business and then I went to also commercial school and I by watching what’s going on in most mountain restaurants I just felt this would be such a challenge to change it.  So in June, Darcy (DRC) Brown (Jr.) called me from Carbondale and said, “I pick you up.”  He brought me to the restaurant where the foundation was laid already and I met Harry Pratt his builder and anyway by December I had my lease.  December 22nd in ’66 I opened with an all ladies crew, all my friends working up there and the first people who came in it was really very funny.  They were a couple from Red Mountain and I’m trying to think of them, I see them still and they said, “My God, are we in the new restaurant or is this a PTA Meeting?”  It was funny.

 

How did you get…you said you wanted to run the restaurant and you had had some experience, but this was a brand new restaurant, how did you go about organizing it and getting it ready to open?

This is what I like the most, I love organizing and so I went ahead just making all of the drawings, the way I wanted it and the way it should be.  Because I didn’t like it in most restaurants, the hot stuff was in the beginning and the cold stuff was at the end and then you’d go out through the cash registers and everything is lukewarm.  So we moved all the hot things up towards the cash register and dessert and cold stuff to the beginning of the line.  But then at that time you wouldn’t believe it but there was just the original building and there was just a small, comparatively small stove and about a workboard* off a little over a meter.  That’s where I did all of my cooking and baking, but then we didn’t have more than about 500 people a day.  I was not allowed to make any advertising, there wasn’t even a directional shield up on the Mountain (Aspen Mtn.).  I should have been a catch-all for the overflow of the Sundeck, but this I didn’t want to do, I just thought no.  I want to show that different food can be served on the Mountain (Aspen Mtn.) and I went ahead and started to make absolutely different food, European, American, mixing it.  Also we were one of the first ones who had vegetarian meals, but we never served the people what we had the day before.  We would serve the next day, we would change everything every day, we didn’t repeat ourselves and then by accident one day the lift was closed because we had a snowstorm, I made for my employees, I made a strudel.  They said, “Ah, this is delicious!  Couldn’t you sell this?”

 

That was the beginning.

At that time it was the beginning, but we were hand peeled and hand sliced, everything.  But I always up to the very last, I made my own doughs, I always did and anyway that was the beginning of that.

 

Gretl I want to talk a lot more about the restaurant, but it’s almost time to turn the tape over, before we do, what was the name of the restaurant?

It was Gretl’s on Tourtelotte Park.

 

And did you eventually…or when did you get some signing, so that people would know about you?

Well it was later, I was on a salary for four years and after that I did ask to get at least a certain percentage.  I was the only restauranteur on Aspen Mtn. who had to pay 15% after gross for most of the years I was up there, while the rest paid between 10 and 12.

 

Let’s turn the tape over and continue.

Yeah

 

Gretl we were just talking about the Ski Corp. (Aspen Skiing Co.), in those days it was the Aspen Skiing Corporation.  What kind of relationship did you have with them over the years?

I had a really good one, I liked Darcy (DRC Brown Jr.).

 

And it was Darcy (DRC) Brown (Jr.)?

Darcy (DRC Brown Jr.) was a man, if he said something, he kept his word.  He was one of the old guard still.

 

I’m a little bit confused, when you said you went into the original building, was there something prior to what now is the restaurant in that place?

No, the original building was just a big rectangular building which later on a kitchen got added, they added on a kitchen and they added on the room which is where the sandwiches are made.  Plus some new storage and naturally the deck out there and an apartment.  This all happened over a few years.

 

You started with a very small…

Just a base building.

 

And a very small working area.  Did someone help you do the cooking?

No, I had people who cut stuff.

 

The prep stuff.

The prep stuff, but no I…at that time I made most of it myself.

 

You mentioned that part of your vision for the restaurant was to provide different kinds of food and something that was of a higher quality and quantity than the existing restaurants on the Mountain (Aspen Mtn.).  What were some of your ideas about how you thought employees should be treated?

It was on a very personal basis, I picked people who complimented each other.  Mostly local people, I’m still in very close contact with all of them, we became in a short time a very close knit family really.  They ended up having year after year, 36 employees on a rotating basis.  Wonderful people I had in my whole 14 years, I had to fire only two and one is in business herself now, we just had clashing personalities.

 

Is she in the restaurant business?

No, but something like it really and the other one is a young man who just thought he could help himself running a cash register the proper way, by letting the first few people go through free, so he would have a little starting money if he does something wrong.  In a moment I had my eyes, they say I have eyes in the back too, and in the moment I saw this, I had him go.  But this young man kept calling and saying he would never, ever do something like this again, please take me back, so I have to say after four days I took him back, he was such a good worker, but I never put him on the cash register ever again.  He was back on the grill by that time, he couldn’t do any damage.

 

Did you have models in your mind or restaurants you had seen that prompted you…?

No, I didn’t, I wanted to do something absolutely original.  I wanted to do it my way by teaching and being in various ski areas, I thought what I wouldn’t do, how I would do it.  So I wrote this stuff down and then made drawings and did it and I must say it was just run absolutely beautiful, like a household really.

 

What were some of the things that you knew that you wouldn’t want in your restaurant?

Poor quality, number one.  The best quality is basically for a person who operates a business, because there’s nothing to throw away.  Anything cheaper, sellers considered a deal, you have to sort out, you need people to do it which costs you, plus you don’t have to…it doesn’t have the taste, it just isn’t half as good.  The fresher it is, the better it is, the best quality is really, the best is the best.  It’s easier, easier to handle.

 

What do you remember about opening day?

We had such…all of us, not only me, we had such butterflies, you cannot imagine.  We were scared to death that we would do something wrong, that it wouldn’t run, that a machine would conk out, we just were scared to death.  But it all worked, so the next day already went smoother and then it really was by plain word by mouth.  Because like I say, we were not allowed any advertising.   But it…the word got around very fast.

 

Are there some stories that you have about things that happened while you were running the restaurant?  That may have been a little unusual.

We had a lot of parties up there, we had a lot of celebrities, we really didn’t bother, but they would make a point of meeting me eventually and being quite happy that they could be incognito up there.  That included movie stars and government people and naturally I have to say Prince Faisal* and the King of Spain.  All these people came and they wanted to get to know you and you sat down with them and had a cup of tea or talked because they were familiar through magazines and newspapers.  Anyway I met the most interesting people and a lot of them, these people have become life long friends.

 

Anybody come to mind?

Well, Jack Nicholson for one, he really liked to be up there and enjoyed very much our company up there.  As a matter of fact one day he stayed extra, he stayed over, he asked if he couldn’t ski down with my crew and we sat around the round table and Sally Mencimer…all of us we ask all kinds of funny questions, but Sally most particularly.  Because we wondered about his clothes, he was never exactly a fashion model and Sally just asked point blank where he buys it, if it come from the Thrift Shop.  He just laughed his usual nice laugh.  And I have to say George Hamilton always kissed my hand, he was just lovely.  Then the Kennedy’s were up there lots, as a matter of fact Ethel gave me a beautiful book about Robert Kennedy with an inscription, which I cherish.  Naturally all of the football players and so many people would be interesting ones to put down their names, I have it all in newspaper clippings and so on.  I have stacks of it and one day in 1978 the Bavarian television and radio came over to Aspen up the restaurant unannounced and made a movie.  It was a movie which was called “Skiing between pole and palms”.  Which meant from the North Pole or winter skiing, palms went Hawaii.  They started in Taos and ended up in Hawaii, that movie turned out really beautiful, I must say, I have some copies here and it run in Europe for 22 times on television and so on.  Anyway I met a lot of people because of it.

 

I bet a lot of people came skiing….

Because they couldn’t miss the face.

 

Any other memories of perhaps a day when something had gone wrong or…?

Oh yeah, we had one day particular day staff in ’69, it was snowing and blowing and the people had, some people had been up on the Mountain (Aspen Mtn.) already.  So the Mountain (Aspen Mtn.) had to be closed so most people came in.  The place was absolutely full and because there was such a fun group up there, they were partly European people.  I had an accordion up there and a guitar and brought it up and made a big party.  We gave the food away for free and just had a ball and by the way, giving the food away free, we did this every year, end of the season.  Last day we were opened, which was usually around the 31st of March, we closed earlier than the Sundeck.  We had announced on the blackboards to come up and have free food up at our place, because we just didn’t want to have anything left.  And then the next day, by invitation, I had a huge big party up there, it was approximately 300 people, also non-skiers who were brought up in snowcats.  And I had that year after year and I had a group of musician up there playing for us to dance.  Days ahead already I baked and froze tortes and stuff, we had the best food you can imagine, it was just beautiful.  We danced, we had plays, we had a ball.  When I think of it, we had a wonderful time.  Then also we stayed up quite often up at full moon time.  We stayed up at the restaurant, brought our sleeping bags up.

 

That would be your family?

No, no, no, my employees and I hired somebody to, actually P.J., Paul Johnson, who has a business in town here.  He was working for me, but I hired him for the night to make us dinner, while we walked over to the top of Number Eight and had drinks and watched the sun go down and then slipped down on trays to the restaurant.  We had such nice time.

 

As the years went on, did you have more people help with preparation and did you do a little less in the kitchen or…?

Yes, I did less, I did less, but I had the best people.  I trained them very well, I had excellent people working for me and mostly people from town.

 

And the same people year after year?

Year after year, that was wonderful.  I think that’s why were are so close at this moment still.

 

Did you see, as you looked at other mountain restaurants in this area, that Gretl’s influenced them?

Yes, absolutely.

 

In what way?

Different food service, they changed, they adopted, especially Snowmass also.  And then after I quit up there, two years later I was asked by a group of young men from Park City to be their consultant and help them with their snowhut in Park City.  I flew up there a few times, gave them all of the suggestions, it was not, I use the frank here a restaurant, there was no traffic there, absolutely none, zero and I had all these ideas and we wrote a proposal.  In August of ’82 I got a phone call from one of these gentlemen saying they had a meeting and after I could not commit myself to really work up there.  I would have committed to just fly up once a month and teach the key people.  They didn’t get it and it was on a Friday in August and I said, well…I felt so sorry because the guys had such enthusiasm, they are wonderful people.  I said, “Don’t hang up, I know two places you can apply and one of them I would really help you.”  I said, “One is Beaver Creek, make an application.  The other one is Aspen Highlands, their lease is up they’re not renewing it and I know for sure if I give you a hand, you can get in.  Hang up and call them.”  They called George Lloyd and George Lloyd called me with all this in an hour.  I said that was Friday, the guys came Sunday because I had to talk with them and get everything straightened out.  Monday we went up the Mountain, looked the restaurant over, told them I need windows in the kitchen, I cannot work in a dark room and Tuesday we signed the lease.  I had complete quality control for five years up there.

 

Did you actually work in the restaurant?

I worked like it was mine.  I taught the guys, first there were three, then now there are two and they’re still up there doing a really good job.

 

I’m sorry and what are their names?

That’s George Schermerhorn and Robert Kronenburg.

 

Well let’s back up just a little bit because we have to get from the closing of Gretl’s Restaurant to what happened, what you described in Park City and then the Merry Go Round, which is the name of the restaurant at the Highlands.  How did it happen that a successful, marvelous, delicious restaurant close?

It is still a puzzle to me, I had…I hope one day somebody will tell me what really, truly happened, what the story really is.  I received a lease which was absolutely unacceptable, it would have ruined me financially, I couldn’t do it.  If I would have agreed, I would have worked for nothing, I just…it was…still just plain can’t understand what happened and who the person really is who wanted me out that badly.  But apparently somebody was there who didn’t like it that we were so successful, we were written up in, you wouldn’t believe it, there isn’t a magazine from the New York Times to the Chicago Tribune to the Los Angeles Times to Women Wear Daily to Town and Country, I cannot even start, we had write-ups, we had people up there from all over Europe.  I had once a whole group of from the Mayor of Innsbruck to restaurant owners from Friedlburg, all these people coming up.  Or a whole contingent coming over from Vail, from the food and beverage manager to the people who work close up on the mountain.  All these people wanted to know things, I was always willing to give a hand a to give my ideas.  I never charged a penny for that and I can…it was with Telluride, with Steamboat, you name it I was involved in so many things and to this day, I don’t know.  One nice thing was that after I…I had to resign, there was no other way.

 

And this was 1980?

Yeah.

So the end of the ski season?

Yeah end of the ski season, it was in February.  And I just, to this day I don’t know what was truly behind it.  I can guess, but I can’t put my finger on it really.

 

And there’s nobody that told you?

No, I was nearly sick, I was heartsick.  At that time I have a whole notebook full of offers which came my way at that time and that means from the Red Onion to the Copper Kettle to all these places, to out of town places.  One wonderful one was really by Edgar Stern from Deer Valley, first Park City, then Deer Valley.  He wanted me really in, in the beginning when they built it, flew me up there and it was…they outdid themselves to show me what I could do up there.  They made an offer which was unreal, but I didn’t want to move from Aspen, just didn’t.  So it was a really, for me a terrible time, I had to rethink my life practically, because this was something I lived for, I loved it.  I loved my people, I loved the people who came, you wouldn’t know how many meals we made because somebody asked for it.  Or somebody was sick, we made them something special on the side or somebody…or if the school teachers called and said “I am on this and that diet, would you be so nice, we are coming up today?”  We absolutely did what a restaurant actually should do, please the customers and so it was a real shocker.  But then getting involved at Highlands, that really helped me personally too.  And the guys were good to work with, part of my crew went over there just to get them started and I like what I see over there.  I still like to help people, I still get telephone calls and questions from God knows where, including California and so on and I have always been free with advice.  I hope it was always…I know it was always a help to those people.

 

So it was a real shock and I imagine it was a shock in the community as well.

It was, tremendous.

 

What kinds of response did you get from people?

I got so many letters and also newspaper write-ups about it, which…and this means it went…the papers came from all over the United States really because people asked themselves, why?  I couldn’t answer it.

 

Well, so your life changed a great deal and then after five years you left the Merry Go Round in good hands, that’s how you feel about it or…?

Well it wasn’t really five years, it was longer than that, but I stayed on longer.  I really truly enjoyed working with these guys.  But eventually I felt that I’m hanging on to something which I shouldn’t, they needed their freedom to make their own choices.  It was only fair to leave.

 

Well then let’s look for a little while at your life, your life in Aspen primarily after the restaurant.  Although perhaps even…let me back up just a little bit.  Throughout these years you were working very hard in the restaurant, but I wonder if there’s anything you would like to say about your life as a mother and a wife in Aspen and maybe a little bit about what you did in town in addition to the restaurant if you had time?

Yes I did naturally.  One thing is I love to travel.  I really mean travel, short distance, long distance, you name it I am ready to go at any time and just came back from Brazil, have traveled quite a bit in Russia and Siberia, Mongolia, Europe naturally.  I just love it and then in Aspen well one thing I always did, I gave a lot of parties.  I love parties and well, I like people.  And one which particularly became famous was my garden party.  I started it many, many years ago when we were all still young, always on the 20th of July, that’s my name day.  So I was so lucky all these many, many years that was the…it never rained on my party.

 

How many years did you give it?

Oh god, from the end Fifties till three years ago.  But it’s so much work you wouldn’t believe.  I have a tent and I made food, I cooked at least for four days, cooked and baked and cooked and baked.  I invited between 70 and 90 ladies, they all had to wear something very summery, including hats.  In the beginning they made their hats or bought it from the Thrift Shop and everybody was watching how the next one looks when they came in, very funny.  I have the nicest pictures and memories of that time.  And then the end of the lunch which usually lasted until five, I had them…I put the paper plates out and wrapping paper and they had to take it all home and believe me there was a lot to take home.  To their husbands and children, so there was not too much left to clear up.

 

Did you ever have anyone help you with the cooking for a big party like that?

No

 

All yourself?

Yeah, but I think if I would, if somebody would help me and they certainly have offered, I think I should do it once in a while again.  That’s just…you wouldn’t believe, it’s so much work it’s incredible.

 

What was social life, your social life like during the years that you and Sepp lived here?

It was great, absolutely fantastic, absolutely fantastic.  Aspen was a real party town and still is, I love parties, I like to go out, I still do.  Bike parties, really crazy stuff, fun stuff, you wouldn’t believe it.

 

When you think about the Fifties and the Sixties, was there a big mix of people in town in terms of those who were here for the cultural events and those who were the skiers and those who were working every day and those who were more wealthy?

Yeah

 

Was there stratification or was there a mix in the social life?

There was a absolute 100% mix and that was so wonderful.  You did not…you liked people for their personality.  You didn’t care if they were rich or poor or whatever they are.  As long as they had humor and could manage their life and contribute something to this community, we had all such a wonderful time.  Nobody thought of money, it just didn’t occur.  If you had it or didn’t have it, we mixed with absolutely everything.  That was the nice part.

 

I know that, or I read that Sepp had a stroke in 1994 that he recovered from, is that correct?

Yeah

 

And that he died just…

Two years ago.

Almost two years ago on August 23, 1993.  You had been married 45 years and I’m wondering if there’s anything you would like to say about that difficult time and how your life has changed since then?

Sepp was a very special person.  He was a person very much to himself, even he was quite an entertainer when he felt like it, but basically he was a man who liked to work in his workshop out there and his dirt.  He couldn’t even forget about food and eating, I think that’s why I like to cook so much for other people, because he was so fussy.  But he was, he was truly I can only say Sepp was, our married life he was a true gentleman and never varied in that respect.  I always admired him for the courage he had certain days before he died, he just told me this is it, this life cannot go on like this.  That isn’t life, the quality is lost.  I couldn’t go back to ski this winter, I cannot do drawings anymore or paintings the way I like to do it.  I like to quit and he said, “This is something you have to understand because you are made of the same mold, you would do the same.”  And he threw away all his medication on that day and Doctor Mink was so nice he told me the consequences the next day and Sepp still saw all his friends his last 13 days, everybody was here in the house.  We always had a full house and I let just always one person at a time go in to his room, I had him downstairs.  He was unbelievable until the day he died.  Very conscious of everything, but absolutely willing to go.  So I really do admire him to have such courage.  He loved music, so do I.  We made a lot of music at the house, we had so many good times.

 

I know that it’s so painful to think about it now.

Yeah it is.

 

Because of the loss and I appreciate that you’re sharing that.  Gretl what was the ultimate cause of his death?

Sepp had congestive heart failure, there was still medication on the market, a new one which would have shrunk the heart, but Sepp had made up his mind, it’s time to go.  He said, “We had such a wonderful life, I cannot live under the circumstances and I don’t want to.”  And Sepp left a beautiful, beautiful letter where he just really thanked me for his whole life and wished me the best and said, “Feel free, like you always just feel free to travel and do what you really like to do.”  I think that’s great.

 

And yet as you were telling me when we had the tape off, you were really hoping that…part of you was really hoping that he would have fought, because you thought maybe he had a chance.

Yes, I drove Sepp to Denver a few times and I really talked him…talked him into it, or tried to talk him into it, but Sepp had made up his mind and it was hard for me to understand because I’m a fighter.  I like to do things all the way, I don’t, I really don’t like to give up.  What really helps me a tremendous amount are all our friends in Aspen and actually all over, not just Aspen.  I have such an incredible support group of friends, I cannot believe it and I’m so thankful for it I can’t tell you.  I’m just so blessed with it.  Now people just keep looking out for me and I am living an absolutely good life.

 

Let’s take a few of our last moments now to talk about looking back at your life in Aspen from the perspective of over more than 40 years here.  What do you see as your most important accomplishments during your life in Aspen, personally or professionally?

Personally, to holding a family together under sometimes very trying circumstances.  I have a daughter who had PKU, which is a protein deficiency and effects her very much.  So she has a hard life, which means I have a lot of responsibility.  I have an incredibly artistic son who is my biggest support.  I can only say he really lights up my life and not just mine, I think quite a few people.  Anyway, I think the whole thing is a give and take all along in your life and in Aspen it’s very easy to do and another thing I love about Aspen so very much is meeting the most interesting people and truly becoming acquainted with them.  Not just on a cocktail party circuit, but really getting to know them and that’s what I cherish.  People are stopping by, I always have an open house.  I would bake something, I always have something here, people know they can drop in at any time.  I will always have the time or most of the time I have the time for them.  I love it, I never know who comes, but everybody is welcome to come it makes for a really good conversation and a beautiful life.

 

Do you have any, well I know you must have some thoughts, but what are some of your thoughts about the growth of the town?

What bothers me and I like to really speak out on this, is the people who lived here for such a long time like ourselves are absolutely not considered when it comes to property taxes.  We are not here for speculation, we are here to outlive our life here.  Why make it so hard on us?  Why should we…my house is such that I cannot rent it out because it doesn’t have heat in various rooms.  It’s an old house from 1888 and it would be very hard to change anything in it, to make it rentable like so many people do to get our tax money.  I cannot do that and I think we should be on something which keeps it at a certain level and the increase should be according the national gross and not just to the whim of some of our politicians.

 

Is that something you discuss with your friends and other people?

Yes I do and I also go to the hearings, but that doesn’t seem to matter.  There is no strong voice here, who helps people actually in that case old-timers.  We are slowly but truly moving out, but I don’t want to.  Again I will be here until I die I hope and I will find one way or another to keep the house, I will.  But I know other people have a hard time.

 

And there are people who are leaving?

A lot of people are leaving.

 

And you this is one of the reasons, financial?

Absolutely it is.

 

You’ve also seen a lot of changes in the ski industry since you came in the early Fifties, how do you characterize the Aspen skiing industry?

Well the town has grown so much that it is a natural, what followed.  It just is…the development is like in any of the European resort.  It follows absolutely in the same footsteps and it’s…you cannot hold it back.  Only in Europe they do take care of the people who live there, while in Aspen we don’t, we just ignore that fact.

 

Do you have any idea why that is here?

No I don’t, I don’t.

 

Well Gretl we’re coming to the end of our time, we have maybe a few more minutes and I know that you have been interviewed many time for the restaurant and perhaps for the Historical Society, if you were asking yourself some questions, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that should be asked?  Or anything you’d like to mention that we haven’t had a chance to talk about?

No I can only say I love my life here, I wouldn’t want it any different.  I’d like to outlive it here, naturally interspersed with all the travel I am doing.  But home is here, 100% of my friends are here, it makes all the difference.  I just can say I cherish my friends and I love Aspen.

 

And what do you have think you have left as a legacy or a mark on Aspen?  What do you hope that you have left over these, all these years?

I hope that it…I think a good spirit and being ready to jump in at any time when they need.  I don’t like to be on any volunteer basis, but everybody knows that whatever comes up, I’m the first one to jump in.  There is never a question asked, I do it, but I don’t like to be on a timetable, I absolutely hate timetables.  I have been on a schedule all of my life and this I don’t want anymore.  I think the only thing I want on a time schedule in winter is my senior group of skiers and that’s the only one I keep.

 

What kind of skiing do you do now, or how often do you ski now with your senior group?

I ski with the senior group, I ski once a week and I was assigned to Highlands last year.  The year before I was on Buttermilk with them.  I would like to see it changed that we can bring our group every week, that we exchange, that we bring our group to each of the areas the following week.  So we’ll get to know all areas and still can keep together or be together with the same type of people.

 

Are you instructing now or are you just skiing with friends?

I usually do a little bit of instructing when I have a group, because I see what’s missing naturally and I’m always a little critical.  But basically I ski with friends and we have a…we have truly a wonderful time and there are people from out of town who report to the Senior Center and join us.  Sometimes I have to split the group because we are so many, but then I take one part of it in the morning and the other part in the afternoon and we do get together.

 

Is there anything else that you would like to add before we finish today?

What make me happy really is that the food industry in Colorado really has slowly gone the direction I pointed and we had a wonderful write up in the Rocky Mountain News about that years ago which I have kept naturally.  I really know that it can be done no matter how many people, we had days where we served two dozen people, we had days where we served only 1200 or so.  But we never ever skipped on quality, never.  I would never do it, I would never water down the soup or do something like this, which is done.  Or use second quality, I think that’s…well quality is quality, no matter what, it goes through your whole life.

 

And as you’ve demonstrated and as you’ve explained to me, it not only played a role in your food, but also in the quality of your life.  Your friendships, your relationships and everything that you’ve done.

Yeah I think so, it goes through the whole life.

 

Well I would like to thank you and tell you what a pleasure it has been for me to have a chance to ask you questions and to be with you and to help you to tell you story.  And I just wanted to thank you again.

Thank you a lot.